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Is the State inevitable? Where Libertarians and Communists join hands

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  • Is the State inevitable? Where Libertarians and Communists join hands

    Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
    Wow, Darthy and Epoety actually think that the more powerful our governments are, the better the world will be. It doesn't matter that the common folk will not be able to keep sociopaths out of powerful governments. Augusto Pinochet is a good example of a sociopath in government.
    Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
    No, Darthy and Epoety know that if you don't have a powerful government backing the kind of world you want to live in, you will live in the world of those who do.
    Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
    Off topic, but if you start a thread on this, I would wade into your fray and fray your nerves.
    Sure. Thread started. Explain how a state-free utopia can come about.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witheri...y_of_the_state

    The interference of the state power in social relations becomes superfluous in one sphere after another, and then ceases of itself. The government of persons is replaced by the administration of things and the direction of the processes of production. The state is not ďabolished,Ē it withers away.

    The society which organizes production anew on the basis of free and equal association of the producers will put the whole state machinery where it will then belongĖinto the museum of antiquities, next to the spinning wheel and the bronze ax.

    ~Friedrich Engels
    As we all know, the musings of Engels and Marx got us the Soviet Union. Fortunately, libertarians are so delusional about humanity and the way the world works that they stand pretty much no chance at dislodging a state and replacing it with their insane vision, so we're safe from that particular bloodbath. Less fortunate, however, are the insane libertarian policies that are implemented by the much smarter and far more dangerous liberals since liberal insanity is a lot more subtle and thus interferes far less with reality.

    Originally posted by Rational Gaze View Post
    I guess they must think that the last twenty dozen attempts or so being massive failures is some kind of fluke.
    What me and RG consider a massive failure probably differs radically, but the argument here is amusingly similar to the argument used by the gun control nutjobs, to which libertarians vociferously object.
    "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

    There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

  • #2
    Why don't we forget Marx and Engels, please?

    We libertarians can hope for partial success, in that the world is better because of our efforts than otherwise.

    I have an argument for a totally libertarian (anarchy) world that partially depends on the inability of people to show that our established governments are making the world better than otherwise. So, I suggest that we start our debate with you trying to show that our established governments ARE making the world better than otherwise.
    The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

    [T]he truth Iím after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -ó Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
      Why don't we forget Marx and Engels, please?
      Why? It's important to see how ideologies play out in real life.

      We libertarians can hope for partial success, in that the world is better because of our efforts than otherwise.
      Clearly.

      I have an argument for a totally libertarian (anarchy) world that partially depends on the inability of people to show that our established governments are making the world better than otherwise. So, I suggest that we start our debate with you trying to show that our established governments ARE making the world better than otherwise.
      What is "otherwise"? There are any number of options other than "our established governments" so without defining what otherwise means your request is impossible.
      "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

      There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
        Why? It's important to see how ideologies play out in real life.
        As I will show shortly, it's impossible to know much for sure from studying history. One must cope with historians' opinions as well as "facts," for one thing.


        What is "otherwise"? There are any number of options other than "our established governments" so without defining what otherwise means your request is impossible.
        Yes, impossible. You've hit on one of the points I was planning to make, that, absent theory and a definite system of morals to guide us, nobody can knowingly evaluate whether any given established government is doing more good than bad. And which system of morals to use? You and I may agree it should be the Christian system, but people that live according to it constitute less than a majority of the world.

        You may be interested to know that some time ago I gave One Bad Pig a similar challenge. So far no response. And probably several readers have seen my challenge. Again, no response.

        Suppose we agreed to consider Singapore. Suddenly its government vanishes (at least in our imaginations) and Singapore goes on without any established government. What would happen? In particular, would the world be slightly better than had the government of Singapore continued to "work," instead?
        The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

        [T]he truth Iím after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -ó Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
          As I will show shortly, it's impossible to know much for sure from studying history. One must cope with historians' opinions as well as "facts," for one thing.
          We can know with a solid degree of certainty a number of things. For example, we can be fairly certain that libertarianism can't work.

          Yes, impossible. You've hit on one of the points I was planning to make, that, absent theory and a definite system of morals to guide us, nobody can knowingly evaluate whether any given established government is doing more good than bad. And which system of morals to use? You and I may agree it should be the Christian system, but people that live according to it constitute less than a majority of the world.
          Are you a moral relativist? If not I fail to see what the number of people who aren't Christian has to do with anything.

          Suppose we agreed to consider Singapore. Suddenly its government vanishes (at least in our imaginations) and Singapore goes on without any established government. What would happen? In particular, would the world be slightly better than had the government of Singapore continued to "work," instead?
          If Singapore's government suddenly vanished it would be swiftly replaced by another that's pretty much identical in form and function to the previous one.
          "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

          There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

          Comment


          • #6
            http://ethikapolitika.org/2014/08/26...eneen-part-ii/

            Ayn Rand and Marxists both fantasize about the “withering away of the State,” one because of a society of perfectly expressed self-interest that gives rise to spontaneous order, and the other, a society in which self-interest is overcome, making the state finally superfluous at the end of history. Baloney.
            Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

            Comment


            • #7
              If Singapore's government suddenly vanished it would be swiftly replaced by another that's pretty much identical in form and function to the previous one.
              Or worse, be replaced by a ruler or rulers who values the imported population over the hard experience of life and his nation's traditions:

              Originally posted by spandrell
              Lee had just got into college when Japan invades Singapore in 1942. The invasion was a shock for everyone, Singapore supposedly being an impregnable fortress, symbol of mighty Britain and whatnot. Well the Japanese Army got hold of it in just over a week, and lost no time in making themselves the lords of the place. Lee tells in his memories how after the British Army lost, the colonial population was shocked, but also sort of excited. See, whitey has been defeated. Whites were the epitome of authority, they were so awesome that they seemed to create order semi-magically. But now they lost, and to those Japanese which kinda look like us. What followed was that the most uppity and thuggish of the Chinese, Malay and Indian youths starting looting and wreaking havoc in the place. The Japanese were too busy torturing British soldiers to pay attention to the situation on the streets, but they soon noticed, and didn’t like. Lee Kuan Yew tells how patrols of Japanese soldiers went to the streets, and arrested the strongest, most proud looking youths they saw on the streets. No questions asked. They just singled out the young males who looked like trouble. They took them to a close beach, killed them, decapitated some and put their heads on pikes on the main streets of Singapore.

              No more lootings or any kind of disorder.

              This, along with other targeted massacres of local donors to the resistance movement in China and other enemy civilians are together called the Sook Ching massacres (meaning Purge in the local dialect). The official narrative is that the Japanese massacres of Singapore civilians gave the locals a sense of nationhood, as they were targeted as a political entity separate from their British rulers. The British inability to protect the civilians made them lose legitimacy to govern them ever again, which paved the way to the independence of Singapore. Kinda sounds like the Mandate of Heaven.

              But that’s a load of rationalisation crap, of course. Lee Kuan Yew is so ******* awesome that he had the balls to be honest in his memoirs. He says that the Japanese massacres in Singapore told him a lesson that he would find very useful in his future political life: violence works. And overwhelming violence works faster. The Japanese were harsh, cruel devils. But damn did they impose order. Not a leaf dared to move without permission in occupied Singapore. The young Lee must have felt some admiration for the Japanese way of administration because he spent the rest of the occupation learning Japanese to serve as a translation for his new masters. He later was outspoken in his defence for Deng Xiaoping’s actions in Tiananmen square 1989.

              I recalled this episode when reading the Japanese news a while ago. Japan today is fortunately a different place from 1942, but it would be false to say that all has changed. Behind the facade of polite, honest, pleasant people you see, there’s a very unpleasant world of bullying, harassment and unreasonable rules.

              A 66 year old man in Osaka was arrested after stealing a 10 yen coin from a nearby temple’s offering box. He was taken to court, and sentenced to 1 year in prison. The judge said that yes, 10 yen is a pittance, but it’s money nonetheless, and theft is a crime, so to jail you go. He had been sentenced in first instance to 20 months, which the appeal reduced to 1 year. The news went viral and netizens all around the country were amused. The most common comment was “1 year for 10 yen, that’s some cheap hotel he found”. Indeed.

              Law in Japan can thus be very draconian. Don’t think it’s harsh but fair: there’s plenty of stories of policemen raping underage girls and not even being expelled from the force. Corruption is pervasive, if quite petty (it’s a scandal if you steal 1 million yen), and the yakuza are present to an almost comical extent. Still the argument can be made that compared to law in modern western countries, where muggers, robbers and thugs of every kind aren’t even taken to court because there’s no enough prisons to hold them, Japan is in comparison a more just place. It certainly is more orderly and pleasant, if perhaps not more happy and fun. That’s a tradeoff I’m willing to make.
              Be advised, despite Lee Kuan Yew's non-rotten fruit of authoritarianism, that "replaced by a ruler or rulers who values the imported population" can happen even over a single lifetime, to the very same person. It may be happening to Lee Kuan Yew, but it also happened to King Solomon.

              In any case, Mr. Spandrell is really excellent reading on this issue all around:


              If Singapore is the darling of us Law and Order types, Hong Kong is the darling of libertarians. A hot and smelly piece of rock in the fringe of China, a poor fishing village whose wretched people weren’t allowed to step on the ground, thanks to the power of laissez-faire and low taxes become a cultural and economic powerhouse.

              As different as Singapore and Hong Kong are, they both are an excellent example of the power of low taxes. They basically live off the money that people deposit there to avoid taxes elsewhere. So they need banks. Lots of banks. Not surprisingly banks in Hong Kong are pretty efficient. They also give you credit without asking many questions. Of course it helps that they have a healthy Triad ecosystem to collect outstanding debts when necessary.

              Anyway, I sent an email to my bank in Hong Kong, for some minor matter. They replied very promptly, and solved the problem. Very nice. Then I saw the signature of the clerk who processed my question.

              Best regards,
              Chanel Lau.

              Yes, that’s right. Her name was ‘Chanel’. Chinese people often take English names, which in many cases they choose themselves. This chick (I hope she is female) chose for her the name ‘Chanel’. Soon enough we’ll see little Pradas and Guccis.
              Needless to say, we're mostly white* people here, so I'm quite admitting of our particular genetic and cultural exceptions, and also willing to say that just as the State is inevitable, the decay of that state into corruption or the circumscription of that state into an ordered liberal-tarianish republic is inevitable...based on the morals and religion of its people. What seems to fash most liberaltarians here is the inability to see problems and describe solutions, much less effect them. Most of this is due to their unbroken worship of the words of the Cathedral, the Great God-Substitute Manifested in The Media, The Professoriate, and The Totally Non-Governmental Non-Partisan Advocacy Organizations That Only Take Government Money To Use For Their Own Ends. You will need to renounce them as personal gods if you want to get anywhere in making a better world for yourself or anybody, which means not leaning on their understanding, not feeling vindication when they seem to support you and disappointment when they don't, for they have nothing to do with you or your people.

              Break your addiction to the useless words of the Cathedral and take up your sword when people commit crimes against their people and their societies, and you will find this basic understanding of near-universal human governance much easier.


              *Though our black people can give themselves funny names like "Mickiel" or "Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho" for our own amusement.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                We can know with a solid degree of certainty a number of things. For example, we can be fairly certain that libertarianism can't work.
                What do you mean, it can't work? Is the U.S.A. federal government working? If you say yes, you may not be answering the question I am rather interested in.


                Are you a moral relativist?
                No.


                If not I fail to see what the number of people who aren't Christian has to do with anything.
                Hmm . . . how about this: the number of people who practices Christian virtues, especially, do not steal and do not murder. Actually the Libertarian defining principle, the Non-aggression Precept, is derivable from Christian theology. You object to that?



                If Singapore's government suddenly vanished it would be swiftly replaced by another that's pretty much identical in form and function to the previous one.
                Yes, that is possible. But you assumed . . . what? Something must have caused the vanishing. For the sake of argument please allow Singapore to become suddenly libertarian and remained so for an indefinite period. I ask now: is the world therefore better, other things being more or less equal? That is impossible to answer. For one thing we can only use probabilistic thinking based on assumptions about what the world is really like. Do you believe you do grok the entire world?
                The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                [T]he truth Iím after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -ó Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

                Comment


                • #9
                  Irrelevant to the question I am interested in.
                  The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                  [T]he truth Iím after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -ó Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Epoetker View Post
                    Or worse, be replaced by a ruler or rulers who values the imported population over the hard experience of life and his nation's traditions:



                    Be advised, despite Lee Kuan Yew's non-rotten fruit of authoritarianism, that "replaced by a ruler or rulers who values the imported population" can happen even over a single lifetime, to the very same person. It may be happening to Lee Kuan Yew, but it also happened to King Solomon.

                    In any case, Mr. Spandrell is really excellent reading on this issue all around:




                    Needless to say, we're mostly white* people here, so I'm quite admitting of our particular genetic and cultural exceptions, and also willing to say that just as the State is inevitable, the decay of that state into corruption or the circumscription of that state into an ordered liberal-tarianish republic is inevitable...based on the morals and religion of its people. What seems to fash most liberaltarians here is the inability to see problems and describe solutions, much less effect them. Most of this is due to their unbroken worship of the words of the Cathedral, the Great God-Substitute Manifested in The Media, The Professoriate, and The Totally Non-Governmental Non-Partisan Advocacy Organizations That Only Take Government Money To Use For Their Own Ends. You will need to renounce them as personal gods if you want to get anywhere in making a better world for yourself or anybody, which means not leaning on their understanding, not feeling vindication when they seem to support you and disappointment when they don't, for they have nothing to do with you or your people.

                    Break your addiction to the useless words of the Cathedral and take up your sword when people commit crimes against their people and their societies, and you will find this basic understanding of near-universal human governance much easier.


                    *Though our black people can give themselves funny names like "Mickiel" or "Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho" for our own amusement.
                    1) Much of what you wrote seems to be off topic. 2) Other parts of what you wrote are hard to understand. I do not have the patience to decipher what may only turn to be off topic as well. 3) But you did quote this: "power of low taxes." Let's be clear, established government everywhere is decivilizing and impoverishing, Singapore not excepted.
                    The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                    [T]he truth Iím after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -ó Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
                      What do you mean, it can't work? Is the U.S.A. federal government working? If you say yes, you may not be answering the question I am rather interested in.
                      What do you mean by working? The USA is a functional first world country so evidently it is working, and working fairly well by worldwide standards. It's nowhere near what I wanted to be but regardless of whether one approves of what it does it's clearly a functional State (for now anyway).

                      Hmm . . . how about this: the number of people who practices Christian virtues, especially, do not steal and do not murder. Actually the Libertarian defining principle, the Non-aggression Precept, is derivable from Christian theology. You object to that?
                      Of course I do. Not only is the Non-aggression Precept idiotic as general philosophy, it's laughable to claim it has anything to do with Christian theology which is decidedly authoritarian in nature. God Himself breaches it countless times.

                      Yes, that is possible. But you assumed . . . what? Something must have caused the vanishing. For the sake of argument please allow Singapore to become suddenly libertarian and remained so for an indefinite period. I ask now: is the world therefore better, other things being more or less equal? That is impossible to answer. For one thing we can only use probabilistic thinking based on assumptions about what the world is really like. Do you believe you do grok the entire world?
                      It's not impossible to answer, it's quite easy to answer actually. Libertardians would institute open borders and with Singapore being a prosperous nation-state in a sea of third world savages it would get reduced to ruins in no time. One need only look at how much damage illegal immigration has done to the US to see what libertarian policy would do to Singapore.
                      "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                      There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
                        1) Much of what you wrote seems to be off topic.
                        Ask Darth if he thinks so.

                        2) Other parts of what you wrote are hard to understand.
                        Realistic political commentary can be made as simple as possible, but no simpler. Read and reread my posts, follow all links, stop reading when something makes you angry, then sleep on it.

                        I do not have the patience to decipher what may only turn to be off topic as well.
                        Civilized life has shortened our individual and collective attention span considerably, and I really can't fault you for that. But if you do not have the patience now, you will most assuredly have the free time to think about this later if your particular part of civilization dies and the Internet becomes no longer available

                        3) But you did quote this: "power of low taxes." Let's be clear, established government everywhere is decivilizing and impoverishing, Singapore not excepted.
                        I agree broadly with that, to be honest. At a large enough scale, even the governments bequeathed the best genetics and traditions of kingship are perishing.

                        Now first question is: what the hell is the feudal lord of an obscure tax haven in the Alps doing talking to the Heritage Foundation? He’s presenting his book. A book? What about? How I built an awesome country and made a fortune by taking money from your countries? He would know something about that. Alas no, Hans may have power but he doesn’t have a sense of humor. He wrote a book called The State in the Third Millenium.

                        Yes, this billionaire feudal lord, this medieval aristocrat who owes his fortune to his tax evasion racket, has written a political treatise! Well he does own a state, a very different state to the liberal democratic nation-states we are used to. He surely must have some reactionary insight. Maybe he’s talking about bank secrecy? About zero tax rates? How modern states are evil and totalitarian?

                        No, he’s written a book about his idea that the state must serve the people. Now to be fair to the man, he’s not parroting communist nonsense. He gives it a classical liberal twist, the state must give good services in a limited way, focusing on law and order, equality of opportunity, local autonomy, etc. Not bad stuff prima-facie. The man has given some thought to his politics, and his great idea (so great he just had to write a book about it), is that the monarchy he leads doesn’t derive his legitimacy from God or tradition, but he has democratic legitimacy through the awesome services he gives to his people.

                        Well, duh, good luck with that. A big problem with European political thought is that they’re still using the same old arguments all over. The old Keynes vs Hayek fight. No HBD, social psychology, religion theory. Politics is about policy, if we just think of a good management system and we will it strong enough, everything will be alright. Which is the thinking process of a bureaucrat, who only understand adjustments.

                        I don’t blame most of European intellectuals, most of whom are bureaucrats or are related to them, for thinking like that. But the Sovereign Monarch of Liechtenstein? This guy is not a bureaucrat. He’s a landowner. He could just hire a manager and go to live in Monaco. But he doesn’t. He enjoys managing his “country”, he gave them democracy, wrote a book, and goes to an American plutocratic think tank to sing the praises of low taxes. He must feel like a rockstar being interviewed like a great thinker in Washington DC.

                        The Prince of Liechtenstein is the closest thing there is to Fnargl in the West. And what does he do with his power? Write a lame book about how holy he is because he serves his people.
                        You don't have to read the entire Spandrell blogroll for an achievement in his understanding (honestly, even many good bloggers tend to have One Big Important Idea for which the rest of the posts are but embroidery,) but adopting the attitude of that last sentence will do wonders for your political sanity.

                        Also do remember that devolution, decivilizing, impoverishing and corruption are almost always evolutionary processes, that occur when you're asleep, i.e., running on autopilot. Stay awake, stay alive, increase your numbers of opportunities for understanding, and see where the evolution of your thinking means to take you, and you may just take action to prevent it.
                        Last edited by Epoetker; 08-31-2014, 08:28 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Epoetker View Post
                          Ask Darth if he thinks so.
                          Nah.


                          even the governments bequeathed the best genetics
                          Come now, I'm disappointed. I'm not surprised most people would miss it but a racist should definitely be able to spot a particular trait that is likely genetic, fairly obvious in white people, and explains pretty much all of our idiotic modern behavior. I'll even give you a hint:

                          "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                          There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                            What do you mean by working? The USA is a functional first world country so evidently it is working, and working fairly well by worldwide standards. It's nowhere near what I wanted to be but regardless of whether one approves of what it does it's clearly a functional State (for now anyway).
                            You are debating an issue I am not interested in.



                            Of course I do. Not only is the Non-aggression Precept idiotic as general philosophy, it's laughable to claim it has anything to do with Christian theology which is decidedly authoritarian in nature. God Himself breaches it countless times.
                            Hello? Do not steal. Do not murder. I am beginning to think that you are very bad to debate.




                            It's not impossible to answer, it's quite easy to answer actually. Libertardians would institute open borders and with Singapore being a prosperous nation-state in a sea of third world savages it would get reduced to ruins in no time. One need only look at how much damage illegal immigration has done to the US to see what libertarian policy would do to Singapore.
                            Nice debating you.
                            The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                            [T]he truth Iím after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -ó Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              If there are few readers, no more than 5, anyone of you moderators has my permission to shut this thread down.
                              The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                              [T]he truth Iím after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -ó Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

                              Comment

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