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I'm no libertarian, but they have the right to be on the ballot

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  • #31
    Votes of no confidence sound great - until you have one. Proportional representation sounds good on paper and even works in other systems - but it's not how this one was designed to work and it's really not what Americans are accustomed to. The party system actually exists partially because in a winner take all system the more you pool together, the more you can win. In theory, any number of parties could run and win - a de facto PR system - but in reality, people prefer parties because they minimize the number of races a person has to be informed about in order to vote without it just becoming random.
    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

    "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
      Proportional representation sounds good on paper and even works in other systems - but it's not how this one was designed to work and it's really not what Americans are accustomed to.
      I think the question a lot of Americans are now asking is whether their system really "works". Proportional systems have worked well in other countries, including my own, and seem an obvious way for America to improve its democracy and break out of it's 2-party system.

      In theory, any number of parties could run and win - a de facto PR system - but in reality, people prefer parties because they minimize the number of races a person has to be informed about in order to vote without it just becoming random.
      From looking at various countries where there are multiple political parties, it seems that what commonly occurs is that you get 2 large parties, 2 medium sized parties, and then about 4 very small parties (eg NZ, UK, Australia, Germany, France, Israel etc). This allows voters their choice of either simply viewing the system as a two-party system if they are simplistic minimum-information voters and simply voting for one or other of the two main parties, or allows them to find a party that truly represents their interests if they are politically minded people who have a strong opinions on particular issues.
      "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
      "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
      "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

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      • #33
        FYI: parties are extra-constitutional. I said PR does work in other systems - but in order to work in this one we'd have to amend the Constitution to make them an official part of the system. That would be an incredibly hard sell.
        "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

        "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

        My Personal Blog

        My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

        Quill Sword

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
          FYI: parties are extra-constitutional. I said PR does work in other systems - but in order to work in this one we'd have to amend the Constitution to make them an official part of the system. That would be an incredibly hard sell.
          In all the Nordic countries we have proportional voting without, AFAIK, parties being mentioned in any of the constitutions, atleast not as an integral part. We have even had people elected as individuals outside of any party at all.

          Edit:

          The constitution of Denmark as an example: http://www.servat.unibe.ch/icl/da00000_.html
          Last edited by Kristian Joensen; 05-03-2015, 04:12 AM.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Darth Xena View Post
            I'm bored and since this is something I know about, I am going to add something. The isidewith polls are difficult, as they acknowledge, because they allow gray area answers that are not included, and libertarians are notoriously bad at polls, parsing out things in a ridiculous manner. The most popular position with many libertarians (or at least many) is evictionism which doesn't neatly fall in these areas.

            However, since this thread is talking about the LP and not "libertarians" in general,

            “As far as LP members are concerned, I think many of you already know that things are a lot dicier than the Platform and the press releases would indicate. When libertarians and LP members have been polled, the odds have been pretty stable: In roughly ballpark terms, a third are pro-life: they say we're persons with rights from fertilization onward, and abortion is aggression; it can be outlawed. Yes, there are points of difference and emphasis, but the basic agreement is there.

            Another third are the hardcore of abortion choice supporters: Regardless of anything else, they insist that there should be no restrictions on abortion at any time up until birth, maybe even until the umbilical cord is cut. Here, too, there are points of difference (such as infanticide), but the basic agreement is there.

            And finally, there's the middle -- where everything is differences and there's hardly any basic agreement at all.

            I do not mean that things are a tidy 33-1/3 percent each, but the odds hover in that neighborhood. Pro-lifers are sometimes down to 20 percent or so; the opposite side likewise. The middle is never less than a third.” http://www.l4l.org/library/lp-silen.html, accessed April 16, 2015.


            This article is from 2000 but I see no reason to see that things have changed. NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING divides Libertarians like abortion, and in discussions, it is pretty much about 1/3 are hardcore pro life. And though guys such as Gary Johnson are described as pro-choice, it is technically more accurate to call him partially pro-choice as he does believe there is a point where it should be outlawed, and if technology progressed to say, artificial wombs, that is the way to go (he is basically an evictionist without describing himself that way).

            And, at many Conventions, the abortion plank comes close to being removed from the Platform.There isn't a majority to remove it, but it has come close, so things are not this "distinct minority" said here, at least in the LP. AND some of the people that wish not to remove it are not pro-choice in the traditional way, they just believe the intrusion of the State would be worse. Right or wrong, that is what they think.
            Most pro-choicers are like Gary Johnson and his opinion describes what they generally support. It's important to remember that the far left, with the support of the media, allows people like Barack Obama to get away with supporting horrid stuff like partial birth abortion practically unmolested. The yearly March for Life in DC draws hundreds of thousands of people but barely gets more than a mention in the press. With regards to how many libertarians are on which side, I prefer to stick with my sources since actual data helps avoid confirmation bias. Regardless though, libertarians as a group are considerably to the left of the average American on abortion and probably not too far from the Democrats.

            PS: I saw your post in the other thread, I'll respond eventually, just not in the mood for writing wall of texts right now.
            "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

            There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
              Most pro-choicers are like Gary Johnson and his opinion describes what they generally support. It's important to remember that the far left, with the support of the media, allows people like Barack Obama to get away with supporting horrid stuff like partial birth abortion practically unmolested. The yearly March for Life in DC draws hundreds of thousands of people but barely gets more than a mention in the press. With regards to how many libertarians are on which side, I prefer to stick with my sources since actual data helps avoid confirmation bias. Regardless though, libertarians as a group are considerably to the left of the average American on abortion and probably not too far from the Democrats.
              If confirmation bias means actual interactions with actual Libertarians and being involved in the actual Libertarian platform and the procedure/chances for changing it…. I will take my confirmation bias. And isidewith btw admits its date is not always terrific, because it allows for write in gray areas. Most libertarians liberally use that option.

              But you are not going to get me to defend the LP position on abortion because I don't.

              PS: I saw your post in the other thread, I'll respond eventually, just not in the mood for writing wall of texts right now.
              I have zero desire to continue. You made an assertion, I responded with how many (most?) Libertarians see it. If you want to keep arguing that we ought to be supporting the vigilante killing of state agents, I can't help you. I have no doubt that I have zero chance at changing your mind. I posted for the reader's sake, though I was pretty sure most of them didn't buy what you were saying either. And I wanted to write a document I could keep on my hard drive for used in future presentations. If I think that what you say will improve a future presentation (I am selfish with my time, if I don't see how spending time is going to benefit me, not interested), I will respond. If not, I won't.
              Last edited by Darth Xena; 05-03-2015, 01:19 PM.
              The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                I think the question a lot of Americans are now asking is whether their system really "works". Proportional systems have worked well in other countries, including my own
                I shouldn't have to remind you of this, but like most liberals spouting this philosophy, you live in a small white country.

                From looking at various countries where there are multiple political parties, it seems that what commonly occurs is that you get 2 large parties, 2 medium sized parties, and then about 4 very small parties (eg NZ, UK, Australia, Germany, France, Israel etc).
                White, degenerate white, less degenerate white, white, white, Ashkenazim, a.k.a the whitest of Jews. All of these countries have their own common Euro-ish genetic legacy that enables a minimum intelligence and complexity of political society, and all still maintain cultural traditions that enable them to tolerate multiple parties, all of them are generally propped up by the military guarantees of the United States of America, leading to a massive over-valuation of political structures, and all of them are likely to lose this order as the futility of integration and assimilation of the large numbers of migrants they accept becomes clear.

                This allows voters their choice of either simply viewing the system as a two-party system if they are simplistic minimum-information voters and simply voting for one or other of the two main parties, or allows them to find a party that truly represents their interests if they are politically minded people who have a strong opinions on particular issues.
                And the parties will be compromised either way. Greater party chaos and fragmentation=greater opportunities for moneyed/interested foreign or domestic parties to exploit divisions for their own enrichment.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Kristian Joensen View Post
                  In all the Nordic countries we have proportional voting without, AFAIK, parties being mentioned in any of the constitutions, atleast not as an integral part. We have even had people elected as individuals outside of any party at all.

                  Edit:

                  The constitution of Denmark as an example: http://www.servat.unibe.ch/icl/da00000_.html
                  Section 31 [Elections]

                  (1) The Members of the Parliament shall be elected by general and direct ballot.
                  (2) Rules for the exercise of the suffrage shall be laid down by the Elections Act, which, to secure equal representation of the various opinions of the Electorate, shall prescribe the manner of election and decide whether proportional representation shall be adopted with or without elections in single-member constituencies.

                  Emphasis mine.


                  It's under the Parliment Section - way down there. Off hand I'd guess it was adopted and has become traditional. I didn't read in depth enough to tell if it's mutable although it appears to be based on this section (and assuming the translation doesn't lose anything).


                  Look, Alabama is still working on having the longest constitution in history - Denmark doesn't need to try and catch up!


                  Besides, you're wayyy too far behind to catch us!
                  Last edited by Teallaura; 05-03-2015, 03:56 PM.
                  "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                  "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                  My Personal Blog

                  My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                  Quill Sword

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                    Section 31 [Elections]

                    (1) The Members of the Parliament shall be elected by general and direct ballot.
                    (2) Rules for the exercise of the suffrage shall be laid down by the Elections Act, which, to secure equal representation of the various opinions of the Electorate, shall prescribe the manner of election and decide whether proportional representation shall be adopted with or without elections in single-member constituencies.

                    Emphasis mine.


                    It's under the Parliment Section - way down there. Off hand I'd guess it was adopted and has become traditional. I didn't read in depth enough to tell if it's mutable although it appears to be based on this section (and assuming the translation doesn't lose anything).


                    Look, Alabama is still working on having the longest constitution in history - Denmark doesn't need to try and catch up!


                    Besides, you're wayyy too far behind to catch us!
                    not if they add yours as an addendum
                    Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
                    1 Corinthians 16:13

                    "...he [Doherty] is no historian and he is not even conversant with the historical discussions of the very matters he wants to pontificate on."
                    -Ben Witherington III

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Raphael View Post
                      not if they add yours as an addendum
                      Ours would eat theirs for breakfast - 800 (yes, really) amendments and counting!
                      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                      My Personal Blog

                      My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                      Quill Sword

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                        Ours would eat theirs for breakfast - 800 (yes, really) amendments and counting!
                        So it's more a "work in progress" than a completed document?
                        Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
                        1 Corinthians 16:13

                        "...he [Doherty] is no historian and he is not even conversant with the historical discussions of the very matters he wants to pontificate on."
                        -Ben Witherington III

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                          Section 31 [Elections]

                          (1) The Members of the Parliament shall be elected by general and direct ballot.
                          (2) Rules for the exercise of the suffrage shall be laid down by the Elections Act, which, to secure equal representation of the various opinions of the Electorate, shall prescribe the manner of election and decide whether proportional representation shall be adopted with or without elections in single-member constituencies.

                          Emphasis mine.


                          It's under the Parliment Section - way down there. Off hand I'd guess it was adopted and has become traditional. I didn't read in depth enough to tell if it's mutable although it appears to be based on this section (and assuming the translation doesn't lose anything).


                          Look, Alabama is still working on having the longest constitution in history - Denmark doesn't need to try and catch up!


                          Besides, you're wayyy too far behind to catch us!
                          But it doesn't mention parties with even a single word anywhere in the document, meaning proportional voting and extra constitutionality of parties are compatible. Proportional voting doesn't have to be mentioned in a constitution either, it just so happens to be the case in Denmark. Surely you won't argue that proportional voting in the US would be unconstitutional?

                          Here in the Faroe Islands there is a passing reference to parties in what would be our equivalent of a constitution but that is NOT in connection with proportional voting and does not define or regulate the concept "party" in any way. The only thing it says about proportional voting is that the parliament chooses the composition of its committees by proportional voting. There is a separate act on elections that is a normal piece of legislation that can be changed by a simple plurality of parliamentary votes.

                          So your original claim: "but in order to work in this one we'd have to amend the Constitution to make them an official part of the system. That would be an incredibly hard sell." Doesn't stand up to scrutiny, proportional representation and extra constitutionality of parties are compatible as is the case in Denmark.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Kristian Joensen View Post
                            So your original claim: "but in order to work in this one we'd have to amend the Constitution to make them an official part of the system. That would be an incredibly hard sell." Doesn't stand up to scrutiny, proportional representation and extra constitutionality of parties are compatible as is the case in Denmark.
                            I suspect Teallaura is probably right in the sense that a US court would probably judge a proportional voting system like MMP that introduces political parties as a fundamental political entity that appears on the ballot and can be voted for as unconstitutional.

                            I think she's wrong though in implying that all proportional voting systems require that political parties be fundamental political entities. STV, for example, doesn't require that, and would be perfectly constitutional. Any state in the US could change the way they elect their congresspeople to STV, thus giving a proportional voting system, without any federal constitutional amendment being needed.
                            "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                            "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                            "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

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                            • #44
                              What principle of contitutional law would they base that on?

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Raphael View Post
                                So it's more a "work in progress" than a completed document?
                                More like 'insane' but yeah.
                                "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                                "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                                My Personal Blog

                                My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                                Quill Sword

                                Comment

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