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Re: Michael Brown

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  • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    The case will be decided on the law, not your feelings.
    Are you keeping track of the conversation? I asked "Why do you think it is justifiable for a police officer to shoot an unarmed person?". You already said that you think the law dictates what is moral. This question has nothing to do with this particular case or my feelings.

    Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
    How do you know it wasn't a last resort? How badly beaten should a person be* before they are allowed to consider using lethal force to defend themselves?

    You guys seem intent on ignoring the fact that a person (especially a large and strong person) can kill someone while still unarmed. The bolded sentence is just incorrect.

    I find your last sentence strange. You first say that the cop should absolutely not have used lethal force to defend himself, even if he was in danger of imminent harm. Then you say that imminent harm should be one's criterion for justifiable self-defense. Which is it?

    *Again, if he was beaten.
    It should never be the last resort for a police officer to shoot an unarmed person. A person should be in danger of death before they consider using lethal force to defend themselves. I am not talking about an unarmed person killing anyone in general. I am talking about the threat an unarmed person poses to a police officer. I do not think it is possible or should be possible for a police officer to be in imminent danger of dying from a single unarmed assailant.

    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    How do you know if someone breaking into your house is just after your possessions and will not harm you?

    "Excuse me Mr. Home Invader, but would you mind telling me why you are in my house at 2 AM?"

    If a criminal breaks into your home, harm is implied by the very act. They might be there to harm you, or might harm you because you interrupted them while they were stealing your possessions, to prevent you from calling the police or identifying them. They are criminals and unpredictable. Do you want to risk your life and maybe those of your family on the hope that they won't harm you or kill you all?
    How do you know if someone breaking into your home is willing to harm you and not just after your possessions? We can't know what a criminal is capable of, so there's no use making assumptions. You brought up a criminal harming you because they were interrupted or to prevent identification. Can't that happen, and indeed more, if one escalates the situation by shooting?

    Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post


    Or you're an idiot that doesn't understand police training and tactics to start with, but thinks he's qualified to talk about things he knows nothing about. Tell me PM, what is your experience in police training or tactics? Any at all? How about in any kind of defense? What is your experience in any of that stuff?
    Experience is not a prerequisite for assessing evidence and making an argument.

    And if you can't refute it, call them a bunch of names and hope it sticks.
    I haven't called anyone names. You have.



    Where did you come up with that nonsense? From the same source that told you about police training and tactics? What is your experience in unarmed combat? Do you seriously think you can teach somebody to be a martial artist, that is capable of taking on anybody and everybody, in a matter of weeks? In reality, people don't just become world class fighters in a matter of weeks.
    I am not talking about martial arts, although police officers should be trained in what to do to defend themselves if they are unarmed.

    And more of your insanity seems to show itself. Have you been to other countries? Many of these guys carry a lot higher caliber weapon than a simple 9M that our police carry. Some of them carry around military style weapons.
    I'm talking about countries where officers generally don't carry guns.

    And more of your insanity, in action. Do you have the magical abilities to read minds? They have already broken the law by breaking into your house. What lengths are they willing to go to keep themselves out of prison? Lots are more than willing to kill in order to do this. Hey though, if you want to get yourself in the ICU for a few weeks or worse, hey... tell me how that works out. I think though I'd prefer to error on caution and defend myself from a potential dangerous criminal that has already proved they have no regard for the law.
    How do you know if a thief is dangerous?

    Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
    So you must believe that the life of a thief is worth more than the cost, in dollars and anguish, of your personal property and the pain of having been violated. I do not happen to agree. If such a thief looses his life, to bad. He should not have been where he was apt to get shot.
    Do you think the law should be amended to make the penalty for stealing death? What do you think is the cause of your terrible valuation of human life? Where is the limit to which you'd justify killing another person?

    Comment


    • I'm talking about countries where officers generally don't carry guns.
      Such countries are becoming fewer, and they tend to have fewer armed criminals trotting around, usually as a result of laws that make guns difficult to procure. Australian police officers weren't armed until the 1970s, except for detectives (they carried Browning .22 pistols). England has started to shift toward arming police officers of late. In both cases, it has been a response to more frequent occurrences of armed (not necessarily with firearms) criminals.
      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
      .
      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
      Scripture before Tradition:
      but that won't prevent others from
      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
      of the right to call yourself Christian.

      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

      Comment


      • Originally posted by JimL View Post
        Alleged by who? The officer himself never filed an incident report. And even should that be his defense, now that he has had time to think it over, there is no corraborating evidence to that being the case.
        You are still avoiding the point. You said he only made this claim two weeks after the incident. I proved that this was his story from the very beginning. Why not concede the point? If you try to avoid or cloud the issue, it just makes it look like you cannot admit the obvious.

        Originally posted by JimL View Post
        Again there is no evidence to that being the case. Brown didn't attack the officer, the officer attacked Brown, according to the eyewitness, and Brown got away and fled. Trying to escape is not inflicting or threatening to inflict serious physical harm on the officer.
        The issue was about the law, not the facts of the case or evidence to support the facts. It seems you are just afraid to admit you made a mistake about the law.
        βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
        ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

        אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
          Was this you or the cite? I suspect you since it makes no sense in that context. So....

          And the source I cited stated that the initial reports were that the boy had died in the accident HOWEVER the coroner's report showed he died of the beating.

          Had he died in the accident McD's would have had a better - not great - case.
          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          The point was that I had to go to extreme media to even discover from a news point of view that this was a BLACK MOB and a WHITE KID, Jesse.
          The FACT is that the mob was almost ENTIRELY black, as it has been quite a few times before.
          Somehow, your favorite "news" sources omitted that little fact.
          Response posted elsewhere.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
            So you're thinking that this report is not the report that was written by the officer at the time but possibly a dummy report created as a pro forma nonresponse response to a FOI request?
            That is the incident report from the COUNTY police. The officer worked for the city police. The county got involved when they were asked to independently investigate.

            Comment


            • Jim, a more likely scenario is that the officer pulled up to Brown to question him. Brown, knowing that he had just robbed the store, probably thought the cop knew who he was and he wanted to get away. So he sucker punched the officer through the window and tried to run. The officer grabbed at Brown, and they struggled through the window. Brown, wanting to get away tried to grab the officer's gun, failed and ran away.

              The officer got out of the car to give chase. Brown turned around and charged at the officer and was shot. That last sentence of course is up for dispute and is in investigation.

              Comment


              • There does seem to be some cause for substantiated anger about the way certain police behave though, and against that background, perhaps skepticism might be understandable.

                There was another incident when a knife wielding man approached police who had their guns drawn, and was shot. So far, so good. What isn't good though is that the incident was captured on video - start to finish. Didn't have a problem when they shot him and he landed face first and unmoving virtually at one officer's feet. It became a problem though when that officer shifted aim and fired twice more.
                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                .
                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                Scripture before Tradition:
                but that won't prevent others from
                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                Comment


                • Originally posted by myth View Post
                  As a case study, one of our local prosecutors told me about ...
                  If'n it were me, writing it up as fiction ... I'd have had him steal the car.

                  I've heard of jury nullification, and I guess that implies grand jury nullification, but you don't get much chance to hear about grand jury deliberations. It sounds "righteous" in this case. Thinking back to the civil rights era, I can imagine a good deal of similar nullification that would be much harder to justify today.

                  As ever, Jesse

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Psychic Missile View Post
                    Experience is not a prerequisite for assessing evidence and making an argument.
                    If you don't want to sound like an idiot when you do make the arguments, experience is actually a pretty good way to ascertain the evidence and make a decent case for why your argument is valid. Let me give you an example, suppose you have a plug in your house that is putting out 60 VAC that is suppose to put out 110 VAC. What likely is the cause? I could make a pretty educated guess what it is and figure it out because I have experience in electrical work, do you have experience in electrical work? If you don't, how can you tell what the problem is?

                    I haven't called anyone names. You have.
                    And that somehow proves my argument is invalid because.... you have made silly statements that are so insanely stupid, are you surprised that somebody calls you an idiot for making these statements? Michael Brown was 11 inches taller than me and is over double my weight. What chance do you suppose I would have in a physical altercation with him, without some sort of weapon for defense (such as a gun)? Not a lot. In the wild west days, there was a saying that said something like, "God created man and Samuel Colt made them equal." because the gun is the great equalizer. It virtually negates physical strength and gives power to those who might not have it otherwise. Trust me, a guy who is over 6 feet tall and is built like a linebacker could do a lot of damage to a person.

                    I am not talking about martial arts, although police officers should be trained in what to do to defend themselves if they are unarmed.
                    To a degree they are, but that is not what you said at all, you said:

                    "That idea exists because a police officer should not have their life threatened by an unarmed person. Their training and tools should be more than adequate."

                    Which it seems you didn't think your statement out thoroughly and now are trying to back peddle out of your clearly dumb statement. It is totally idiotic to presume that an police officer should not have their life threatened by an unarmed person. People, who are unarmed, harm lots of people every year. It is possible to kill somebody with your fist and the FBI will tell you that too. There's a reason police are armed.

                    I'm talking about countries where officers generally don't carry guns.
                    And how well do you suppose such a thing would work here in the US? I think you're forgetting that there's quite a few differences between the US and other countries. Among those differences, is less of a possibility of running into somebody with such a height and weight advantage due to their relatively homogenous population.

                    How do you know if a thief is dangerous?


                    So I'm suppose to wait until he physically threatens me or my family before I could take action? Do me a favor, do not run for public office or try to pass your insanity into public law. If they didn't want to deal with the possibility of getting shot, they shouldn't of been where they were not invited to start with.
                    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      That is the incident report from the COUNTY police. The officer worked for the city police. The county got involved when they were asked to independently investigate.
                      Shouldn't the county have a copy of the police report for the incident they are investigating? I'm not a lawyer, but the ACLU petition seems to request the report that is in the possession of the county, not just one that the county subsequently produced.

                      http://www.aclu-mo.org/files/3914/08...e_Petition.pdf
                      βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                      ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                      אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                        There does seem to be some cause for substantiated anger about the way certain police behave though, and against that background, perhaps skepticism might be understandable.

                        There was another incident when a knife wielding man approached police who had their guns drawn, and was shot. So far, so good. What isn't good though is that the incident was captured on video - start to finish. Didn't have a problem when they shot him and he landed face first and unmoving virtually at one officer's feet. It became a problem though when that officer shifted aim and fired twice more.
                        This is a key consideration when trying to understand the larger issue of mistrust and anger directed at the police force. There are several stories and statistics floating around that paint a rather poor picture of some elements in the Ferguson police department.
                        βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                        ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                        אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                        Comment


                        • And law enforcement agencies aren't required to meet a Freedom of Information claim in full - if they consider that release might compromise an ongoing investigation, for example, they can withhold the sensitive information. From place to place, criteria vary.
                          There is now the matter of news reports claiming that no report was filed until 10 days after the the incident, when in fact, on the basis of what has been posted here, what they have is a record of the report being processed by a different department 10 days after the incident. You are taking editorialised accounts as reports - when what really is being published is nothing more than opinion. And probably deliberately falsified to support a presuppositional view.
                          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                          .
                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                          Scripture before Tradition:
                          but that won't prevent others from
                          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                          of the right to call yourself Christian.

                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                            Shouldn't the county have a copy of the police report for the incident they are investigating? I'm not a lawyer, but the ACLU petition seems to request the report that is in the possession of the county, not just one that the county subsequently produced.

                            http://www.aclu-mo.org/files/3914/08...e_Petition.pdf

                            they might have the police report or they might not. But the report shown is basically a report stating that they are investigating the case. It is not a full statement itself. It just details what they are investigating.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                              Shouldn't the county have a copy of the police report for the incident they are investigating? I'm not a lawyer, but the ACLU petition seems to request the report that is in the possession of the county, not just one that the county subsequently produced.

                              http://www.aclu-mo.org/files/3914/08...e_Petition.pdf
                              Here is the heavily redacted police report that the County eventually did produce:

                              http://www.aclu-mo.org/download_file/1270
                              βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                              ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                                And law enforcement agencies aren't required to meet a Freedom of Information claim in full - if they consider that release might compromise an ongoing investigation, for example, they can withhold the sensitive information. From place to place, criteria vary.
                                There is now the matter of news reports claiming that no report was filed until 10 days after the the incident, when in fact, on the basis of what has been posted here, what they have is a record of the report being processed by a different department 10 days after the incident. You are taking editorialised accounts as reports - when what really is being published is nothing more than opinion. And probably deliberately falsified to support a presuppositional view.
                                I think you are confusing me with Jim. That is his position, not mine.
                                βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                                ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                                אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                                Comment

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