Announcement

Collapse

Civics 101 Guidelines

Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!

Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less

Perfidious charities, Catholic and Protestant

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Originally posted by Jesse View Post
    I am not sure why you think I would get news from Reason or Patheos. I do read Ben Witherington on Patheos though.
    I don't actually care where you get your news from, I'm merely commenting on their lack of quality given that they produced you.

    Well before you go fully unhinged on this, let's keep it simple. We are talking about a specific article that is talking about Catholic Charities using a refugee racket to pay off sex crimes. You are telling me no mainstream media outlet wouldn't be salivating to get that on the front page of everywhere? That would hardly be toxic to them since you both have the same enemy.
    It's toxic because the Catholic Church is an ally in their illegal immigration schemes. They also sheltered Planned Parenthood from the Gosnell debacle. They don't care about sexual abuse and only cried about the Catholic Priest scandal because it benefited them since the RCC and the MSM clash on sexuality. If you have poz priests [s]raping children[/s]cruising for teen boy behind you can just paint them as hypocrites when they oppose gay marriage. The idea that the Catholic Church is an enemy of the mainstream media in general is retarded and largely concocted by paranoid Catholics. In reality the media and the RCC will gladly collude when interests intersect.

    Anyway, this is STILL a logical fallacy. Rather than go through the article and its sources and writing a proper rebuttal you take the lazy way out and assert that you won't believe a word of an article unless it has mainstream media corroboration.

    Yes I know. And you have many black friends too, right?
    No, just several black acquaintances. I feel no need whatsoever to have any black friends in particular because I don't consider black people to be Sacred Objects to be adored and valued, or Pokemon to be collected. I don't care if people think, insinuate or claim that I raycis's, in part because there's nothing inherently wrong with being racist and in part because everybody (particularly minorities) appear to be quite comfortable with their own racism, which is rarely if ever criticized. But by all means, don't let me stop you from signaling your devoted adherence to the antirayciss'm cult, I know that's how you people jockey for social status.

    When a website says that they indeed do hire white nationalists to write for them, excuse me for thinking they might lean white nationalist. How silly of me.
    Yeah, why would an anti-mass immigration web site hire white nationalists? Clearly the only explanation is that they're white nationalists (don't start with the "lean" goalpost shifting).

    Ok, who are they quoted by that are sympathetic? If I am wrong about that, I will admit it. I haven't seen it.
    http://hotair.com/archives/2011/11/2...ips-on-romney/
    http://townhall.com/columnists/patbu...ture/page/full
    http://www.foxnews.com/story/2004/10...eally-smarter/

    I know you like to throw out your knowledge of fallacies. Can you give me any actual refutation though? My whole point is that their claims are not accurate.
    WHICH CLAIMS? You haven't actually quoted a single word from the article so far. Literally. I actually wasted time going through every single post you made in this thread and I don't see you commenting on the actual article even once.
    "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

    There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
      I don't actually care where you get your news from, I'm merely commenting on their lack of quality given that they produced you.



      It's toxic because the Catholic Church is an ally in their illegal immigration schemes. They also sheltered Planned Parenthood from the Gosnell debacle. They don't care about sexual abuse and only cried about the Catholic Priest scandal because it benefited them since the RCC and the MSM clash on sexuality. If you have poz priests [s]raping children[/s]cruising for teen boy behind you can just paint them as hypocrites when they oppose gay marriage. The idea that the Catholic Church is an enemy of the mainstream media in general is retarded and largely concocted by paranoid Catholics. In reality the media and the RCC will gladly collude when interests intersect.

      Anyway, this is STILL a logical fallacy. Rather than go through the article and its sources and writing a proper rebuttal you take the lazy way out and assert that you won't believe a word of an article unless it has mainstream media corroboration.



      No, just several black acquaintances. I feel no need whatsoever to have any black friends in particular because I don't consider black people to be Sacred Objects to be adored and valued, or Pokemon to be collected. I don't care if people think, insinuate or claim that I raycis's, in part because there's nothing inherently wrong with being racist and in part because everybody (particularly minorities) appear to be quite comfortable with their own racism, which is rarely if ever criticized. But by all means, don't let me stop you from signaling your devoted adherence to the antirayciss'm cult, I know that's how you people jockey for social status.



      Yeah, why would an anti-mass immigration web site hire white nationalists? Clearly the only explanation is that they're white nationalists (don't start with the "lean" goalpost shifting).



      http://hotair.com/archives/2011/11/2...ips-on-romney/
      http://townhall.com/columnists/patbu...ture/page/full
      http://www.foxnews.com/story/2004/10...eally-smarter/



      WHICH CLAIMS? You haven't actually quoted a single word from the article so far. Literally. I actually wasted time going through every single post you made in this thread and I don't see you commenting on the actual article even once.
      Not sure why you brought it up though. Just commenting because?

      Oh I see. So there is a conspiracy between the Catholic Church and mainstream media. Both are aligned in their immigration stance and therefore, the mainstream media will ignore this blockbuster VDare reporting? Am I getting this paranoid delusion right?

      Well you twisted my arm, so I went and read the article. More than half of it is whining about how much money the Church is getting from grants and other sources. Not until the very end does he try to shoehorn in his crackpot theory. With no evidence mind you but this:
      Is the refugee program helping the Catholic hierarchy keep the red ink at bay—and paying executive salaries well into the six figures at local affiliates around the country wherever Catholic Charities is imposing refugees?.
      That right there is some crack reporting.

      It has nothing to do with this not being picked up by mainstream reporters, this has to do with there being no facts to back up the conclusion. Conjecture and guessing isn't proof. And that is why no one is bothering with it. So please, get something better than this.

      That was of course directed at:
      It's telling because you think a web site that posts the syndicated column of a southeast Asian is a "white nationalist" web site.
      Like that means something. I could care less who is or isn't racist. But cowards usualy don't like to admit it.

      Yes. I said they hire white nationalists which is true. So yes their articles would lean white nationalist. Why are you making this more complicated then it is? I said they were a conspiratorial site that hires white nationalists even though they say they are not white nationalists. Make of that what you will. Where is the goal shifting? Is there a white nationalist barometer I don't know about? Are you only white nationalist if it's full on?

      Thank you for those links. I was wrong and they have been quoted by sympathetic media.

      You are correct. I didn't quote from the article. For the same reasons why I don't quote from a Onion or Salon article. It's a waste of everyones time. But I did just for you and now I feel dumber having done so.

      Hey, you and Epoetker can continue to throw out all the factless conspiracies you want. No one is trying to stop you. Carry on you two.
      "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Jesse the Racist View Post
        Not sure why you brought it up though. Just commenting because?

        Oh I see. So there is a conspiracy between the Catholic Church and mainstream media.
        Yes. A CONSPIRACY, which means totally exactly completely the same thing as broadly shared interests motivating similar actions.



        Both are aligned in their immigration stance and therefore, the mainstream media will ignore this blockbuster VDare reporting? Am I getting this paranoid delusion right?
        Both have heavily indoctrinated pro-illegal rank-and-file like you and are led by people who very much do understand the value of a sea of dependents to their personal financial interests, yes.

        Well you twisted my arm, so I went and read the article. More than half of it is whining about how much money the Church is getting from grants and other sources. Not until the very end does he try to shoehorn in his crackpot theory. With no evidence mind you but this: That right there is some crack reporting.
        Yes, it's called a good lead-in for further investigation, assuming "the media" was an independent collection of disinterested entities concerned only with their own profit, rather than mostly a collection of failures at everything else in life beholden to those who support them. (Exhibit A: Gawker)

        It has nothing to do with this not being picked up by mainstream reporters, this has to do with there being no facts to back up the conclusion. Conjecture and guessing isn't proof. And that is why no one is bothering with it. So please, get something better than this.
        SMOKE AND FIRE ARE COMPLETELY UNRELATED! THERE IS NO REASON TO APPOINT A SPECIAL PROSECUTOR TO INVESTIGATE POWERFUL INDIVIDUALS! INVESTIGATIONS BASED ON HUNCHES OR INITIAL SUSPICION ARE ONLY DONE BY SEXUALLY FRUSTRATED LOSERS! EVERYBODY ALWAYS MAKES ALL THEIR INTERNAL MEMOS PUBLIC!

        That was of course directed at: Like that means something. I could care less who is or isn't racist. But cowards usualy don't like to admit it.
        Do tell. Guess that means I can call you Jesse the Racist from here on out.

        Yes. I said they hire white nationalists which is true. So yes their articles would lean white nationalist. Why are you making this more complicated then it is? I said they were a conspiratorial site that hires white nationalists even though they say they are not white nationalists. Make of that what you will.
        I volunteer that any investigations of those claims and suspicions by you would most certainly be a complete waste of time.

        Where is the goal shifting? Is there a white nationalist barometer I don't know about? Are you only white nationalist if it's full on?
        Why you so uptight about this if you don't care about these things?

        Thank you for those links. I was wrong and they have been quoted by sympathetic media.
        I prefer "legitimate media," thank you very much. Which means that their so-called unfounded accusations were, in fact, fully legitimate and completely settled. Thanks, Jesse the Racist.

        You are correct. I didn't quote from the article. For the same reasons why I don't quote from a Onion or Salon article. It's a waste of everyones time. But I did just for you and now I feel dumber having done so.

        Hey, you and Epoetker can continue to throw out all the factless conspiracies you want. No one is trying to stop you. Carry on you two.
        It's nice to find out that you the Racist and Spartacus the Clinton-groupie will, in fact, both confirm the veracity of everything we say in the funniest and most ham-handed way possible, protesting way, way, too much at the tiniest things while claiming not to care about them at all, almost like...you actually do care very much about the success of the mass immigration venture, and are actually crapping your pants in terror at the thought of the extended government being exposed, and thus mistrusted and dismissed by their nameless contributors, whom you worship so much but can never seem to actually match.

        It's expected. Your fundamental motivation is, after all, insecurity at your own personal lack of authority, and you're seizing on blind religious trust in The Independent Press, Final Arbiter of Truth in Our Time, of all things, which is several levels below trust in more well-supported modern gods, like the Spirit of the Age or the Invisible Hand of the Marketplace. Big secret here: Vdare does good reporting that no one else does precisely because its reporters are in fact motivated by things greater than money or fashionable recognition. Most of its best reporters already got the need for those out of their system years ago, or never had them to begin with. So if you in the cheap seats enjoyed this effortless takedown of Spartacus the Clinton-groupie and Jesse the Racist, consider donating money to people who actually put it to good use.
        Last edited by Epoetker; 08-15-2014, 12:32 PM.

        Comment


        • #49
          Dang he mad. Dem walls o' text. Dat caps lock.
          Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

          Comment


          • #50
            I'm frankly a bit surprised that you continue to insist on the scandalous-ness of charities seeking as much money as possible to care for immigrants (documented or not). If indeed this was a novel and shocking revelation, I think we would have had more than 4-5 people posting in the thread, given how many people on this forum are interested in immigration issues. If you can't get anyone other than DE to agree with you, you're probably not about to start a national grassroots movement.

            If you like, we can make a thread/poll asking people whether they think this is even mildly scandalous or surprising. I'd make it myself, but you probably don't trust me to present the issue concisely and fairly, so I'll leave it to you. You think people would actually care about what I say they wouldn't? Prove it.
            Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
              I think we would have had more than 4-5 people posting in the thread, given how many people on this forum are interested in immigration issues.
              http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...cussion-thread

              3 people there.

              My thread wasn't any more successful than yours

              http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...mentary-thread

              So it doesn't look like there are all that many people all that interested in the issue after all.
              "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

              There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...cussion-thread

                3 people there.

                My thread wasn't any more successful than yours

                http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...mentary-thread

                So it doesn't look like there are all that many people all that interested in the issue after all.
                Put "global warming" and "Obama" somewhere in the title. That'll get some views.
                Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                  Put "global warming" and "Obama" somewhere in the title. That'll get some views.
                  Well it's not really immigration that they're interested in then.
                  "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                  There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Epoetker View Post
                    Yes. A CONSPIRACY, which means totally exactly completely the same thing as broadly shared interests motivating similar actions.





                    Both have heavily indoctrinated pro-illegal rank-and-file like you and are led by people who very much do understand the value of a sea of dependents to their personal financial interests, yes.



                    Yes, it's called a good lead-in for further investigation, assuming "the media" was an independent collection of disinterested entities concerned only with their own profit, rather than mostly a collection of failures at everything else in life beholden to those who support them. (Exhibit A: Gawker)



                    SMOKE AND FIRE ARE COMPLETELY UNRELATED! THERE IS NO REASON TO APPOINT A SPECIAL PROSECUTOR TO INVESTIGATE POWERFUL INDIVIDUALS! INVESTIGATIONS BASED ON HUNCHES OR INITIAL SUSPICION ARE ONLY DONE BY SEXUALLY FRUSTRATED LOSERS! EVERYBODY ALWAYS MAKES ALL THEIR INTERNAL MEMOS PUBLIC!



                    Do tell. Guess that means I can call you Jesse the Racist from here on out.



                    I volunteer that any investigations of those claims and suspicions by you would most certainly be a complete waste of time.



                    Why you so uptight about this if you don't care about these things?



                    I prefer "legitimate media," thank you very much. Which means that their so-called unfounded accusations were, in fact, fully legitimate and completely settled. Thanks, Jesse the Racist.



                    It's nice to find out that you the Racist and Spartacus the Clinton-groupie will, in fact, both confirm the veracity of everything we say in the funniest and most ham-handed way possible, protesting way, way, too much at the tiniest things while claiming not to care about them at all, almost like...you actually do care very much about the success of the mass immigration venture, and are actually crapping your pants in terror at the thought of the extended government being exposed, and thus mistrusted and dismissed by their nameless contributors, whom you worship so much but can never seem to actually match.

                    It's expected. Your fundamental motivation is, after all, insecurity at your own personal lack of authority, and you're seizing on blind religious trust in The Independent Press, Final Arbiter of Truth in Our Time, of all things, which is several levels below trust in more well-supported modern gods, like the Spirit of the Age or the Invisible Hand of the Marketplace. Big secret here: Vdare does good reporting that no one else does precisely because its reporters are in fact motivated by things greater than money or fashionable recognition. Most of its best reporters already got the need for those out of their system years ago, or never had them to begin with. So if you in the cheap seats enjoyed this effortless takedown of Spartacus the Clinton-groupie and Jesse the Racist, consider donating money to people who actually put it to good use.
                    Oh Epoetker, if only you understood the meaning of words, this would go much smoother. You do know that conspiracy means collusion right? And what you and Darth are saying is that Catholic Charities and the media are in collusion with one another to suppress news of them using money to pay off sex crimes. A very serious charge mind you. And you do it with no proof. But you want to be taken seriously?

                    Good lead-in? That stupid post was made in 2012. The author of that post didn't even consider it worthy of any follow up. Why would anyone else? I think you believe because the media is sometimes fast and loose with their facts, it's ok for your sources to do it as well.

                    And so your proof that something is true is because :
                    SMOKE AND FIRE
                    Well I guess we can do without facts then. Because where there is smoke, there is fire people!

                    I'm not uptight about anything. If they lean white nationalist, that goes to the heart of how they would report a case like this. White nationalists are not too fond of immigrants, or Catholics.

                    You can call me racist all you like. It truly does not matter to me. If I was, I wouldn't be too cowardly to admit it however. VDare on the other hand...

                    No no, you mean VDare does good conspiratorial reporting that you find pleasing and is factless. Which is also probably why you like it so much. Keep on reading that trailblazing VDare guys! I am sure they will get a story with facts once in this century.

                    I wasn't planning on responding, but I had to because your frothing rage was just too much not to poke at.
                    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Jesse View Post
                      You do know that conspiracy means collusion
                      You are the one shouting "conspiracy theory!" There's no conspiracy here, just blatant looting and treason.
                      "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                      There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                        I'm frankly a bit surprised that you continue to insist on the scandalous-ness of charities seeking as much money as possible to care for immigrants (documented or not). If indeed this was a novel and shocking revelation, I think we would have had more than 4-5 people posting in the thread, given how many people on this forum are interested in immigration issues. If you can't get anyone other than DE to agree with you, you're probably not about to start a national grassroots movement.

                        If you like, we can make a thread/poll asking people whether they think this is even mildly scandalous or surprising. I'd make it myself, but you probably don't trust me to present the issue concisely and fairly, so I'll leave it to you. You think people would actually care about what I say they wouldn't? Prove it.
                        They believe they are on to something here. That is why they are hard pressed to push it. Seeing who actually believes this nonsense would be interesting to see however.
                        Last edited by Jesse; 08-15-2014, 07:46 PM.
                        "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                          You are the one shouting "conspiracy theory!" There's no conspiracy here, just blatant looting and treason.
                          No Darth, both of you are claiming collusion. That is a conspiracy. I am saying there isn't one. Did you not read your own post?
                          "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                            http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...cussion-thread

                            3 people there.

                            My thread wasn't any more successful than yours

                            http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...mentary-thread

                            So it doesn't look like there are all that many people all that interested in the issue after all.
                            I am with you that it is an important issue that needs to be discussed.
                            "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Jesse View Post
                              No Darth, both of you are claiming collusion. That is a conspiracy. I am saying there isn't one. Did you not read your own post?
                              No, I am not claiming collusion. I am claiming that the media has no reason to go after the RCC on this issue since it would be an own goal. They did the same with Gosnell even though I highly doubt they sat down with him and promised him to watch his back, or the backs of the countless pro-choice officials who turned a blind eye to his massacres. This is how they normally operate.
                              "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                              There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Jesse the Racist View Post
                                I am with you that it is an important issue that needs to be discussed.
                                Which you have yet to do in any capacity, mainly because you're unable to make a distinction between active conspiracy and passive collusion, between leads and evidence, and between truth and lies. You and Spartacus cannot discuss the issue because you redefine words and terms on the fly while utterly failing to deal with the claims in any manner that indicates you have any experience with the issues involved.

                                Originally posted by Spartacus the Godless
                                I'm frankly a bit surprised that you continue to insist on the scandalous-ness of charities seeking as much money as possible to care for immigrants (documented or not).
                                I'm not surprised at all that people like you in the media have completely failed to use the proper legal description for things like this, like fraud, theft, misappropriation of public funds, conflicts of interest, relocation of dangerous individuals, gross negligence, reckless endangerment, or any perfectly good and normal word that might be used by someone who had, say, a normal civic interest in seeing his country run well.

                                If indeed this was a novel and shocking revelation, I think we would have had more than 4-5 people posting in the thread, given how many people on this forum are interested in immigration issues. If you can't get anyone other than DE to agree with you, you're probably not about to start a national grassroots movement.
                                You misunderstand, as expected for people who make a habit of misusing words. Me and Darth aren't the roots of this movement. We're the blades.

                                If you like, we can make a thread/poll asking people whether they think this is even mildly scandalous or surprising. I'd make it myself, but you probably don't trust me to present the issue concisely and fairly, so I'll leave it to you. You think people would actually care about what I say they wouldn't? Prove it.
                                Prove what now?

                                Replies: 59
                                Views: 606

                                My threads always have a very high view-to-reply ratio, mainly because people are in fact interested in what I have to say but not usually strong enough or smart enough to fight me on it, mainly because I aim to be as logical and complete in the OP as possible. I'm aiming to influence the conservative fence-sitters, not those who have already thrown in with the liberal order or the 'conservative' status quo like you. Your pathetic attempts at Clinton-style brashness and Obama-style cynicism in defense of these charities only show how indistinguishable they are from the permanent liberal government. "Everybody does it and nobody cares!!!" is nothing but that combination of active lies and unrepentant despair that is so often the mark of the damned, assuming you did read your Bible at some point.

                                Thus, they deserve none of our money, our time, or our praise, but only our contempt and derision, until such time as they repent, cut their ties with the government, and go back to preaching to the common people of the land rather than at them. For the rich and poor are both fundamentally parasites, and thus collude against the righteous easily unless actively resisted.
                                Last edited by Epoetker; 08-16-2014, 12:02 AM.

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by little_monkey, Yesterday, 04:19 PM
                                16 responses
                                103 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post One Bad Pig  
                                Started by whag, 03-26-2024, 04:38 PM
                                53 responses
                                301 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Mountain Man  
                                Started by rogue06, 03-26-2024, 11:45 AM
                                25 responses
                                109 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post rogue06
                                by rogue06
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 09:21 AM
                                33 responses
                                196 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Roy
                                by Roy
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 08:34 AM
                                84 responses
                                357 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post JimL
                                by JimL
                                 
                                Working...
                                X