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Jimmy Carter -- Recognize Hamas' legitimacy!

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  • #31
    Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
    There's very little not-to-like about my favorite ex-President, from his work for Habitat for Humanity, to international election monitoring, to this, another example of his support for peace initiatives. The fact that he outrages right wing extremists is just another sign he's doing it right. It's deeply ironic that folks reading, listening, or watching FOX consider his view an alternate reality.

    As ever, Jesse
    Loved his "international election monitoring" that legitimized the "election" of Hugo Chávez in 1998 when the other groups that monitored the election called it rife with fraud. There is a reason that Carter is known as never having met a dictator that he didn't love (a reputation first earned after Carter sang the praises of Nicolae Ceaușescu of Romania).

    But his work with Habitat for Humanity is definitely admirable.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
      My suspicion is that Hamas' choice to subordinate themselves to Fatah was abhorrent to Bibi precisely because it opened the door to peace by unifying the Palestinians. A two-state solution would prevent Eretz Israel and so long as the West Bank and Gaza are divided, that option will remain off the table.
      And here's a contrasting view from Tom Friedman ...

      Dear Guests
      The third pillar of the Iran/Hezbollah/Hamas strategy is: Israel must forever occupy Palestinians in the West Bank because the perpetuation of that colonial occupation is essential for delegitimizing and isolating Israel on the world stage — especially among young Westerners — and energizing Muslims against Israel.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
        Yeah, I was looking at some of their tunnels this morning on TV -- they're not just holes through the dirt like on Hogan's Heroes. They're pretty sophisticated with concrete walls and overheads, electricity, air supplies, etc.... If they would spend THAT kind money on their own people instead of trying to find better ways to kill Jews, they'd be way ahead of the game! And if they hadn't demonstrated such a determination to get explosives, rockets and other ordnance and munitions, the blockades could ease up significantly.

        [ATTACH=CONFIG]1373[/ATTACH]
        [ATTACH=CONFIG]1374[/ATTACH]
        IIRC that was accomplished with the concrete that was intended to build schools.

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
          Loved his "international election monitoring" that legitimized the "election" of Hugo Chávez in 1998 when the other groups that monitored the election called it rife with fraud. There is a reason that Carter is known as never having met a dictator that he didn't love (a reputation first earned after Carter sang the praises of Nicolae Ceaușescu of Romania).

          But his work with Habitat for Humanity is definitely admirable.
          So, Does he make it to Heaven?
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
            And here's a contrasting view from Tom Friedman ...

            Dear Guests
            The third pillar of the Iran/Hezbollah/Hamas strategy is: Israel must forever occupy Palestinians in the West Bank because the perpetuation of that colonial occupation is essential for delegitimizing and isolating Israel on the world stage — especially among young Westerners — and energizing Muslims against Israel.
            I think the West Bank is a different situation, to a large extent. Israel doesn't "occupy" Gaza (and I realize you made no such claim), and parts of Israel are Palestinian controlled completely, and others are Palestinian authority but with Israeli Military control. The map they gave us when we were there clearly shows "Areas A, B and C", but things on the ground don't necessarily correspond to lines drawn on the map.

            Here's how Huffington Post tries to explain it:
            Source: HuffPost


            Palestine's Complicated Borders: Complex as ABC
            Israel has granted a certain amount of autonomy to the Palestinians, but with significant restrictions. The West Bank of the Jordan River is divided into pockets of land classified into three zones: Areas A, B, and C. The land in Area A, while a relatively small percentage of the geographic area, contains most of the Palestinian cities and towns, and is free -- it's entirely controlled by the Palestinian Authority. The parts designated as Area B are mostly filled with infrastructure surrounding and connecting the islands of autonomy which combine to make Area A. Area B is under Palestine civil authority but is largely off-limits to Palestinian security forces. It's mostly controlled by the Israeli military and seems to be designed so that if there's trouble in any island of Area A -- for example a terrorist attack emanating from that community -- that community can be locked down and isolated in a snap by Israeli troops shutting down Area B. By shutting down Area B, the vast majority of the Palestinian population is bottled up in isolated urban islands throughout the West Bank. Area C, holding most of the West Bank's uninhabited land, is under complete Israeli authority. While Area C is kind of a part of Palestine, there can be no Palestinian building in Area C without a permit from the Israeli Civil Administration -- and that's usually difficult to get. A problem with Area B is that, since Palestinian security forces can't really work there and Israel doesn't care to enforce Palestinian laws, it tends to be a more lawless place...and also serves as a convenient garbage dump.

            © Copyright Original Source



            Meanwhile, here's an interesting video showing Hamas setting up a rocket launch in the middle of a very dense civilian hotel district. It's rare to see this actually filmed.

            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              Loved his "international election monitoring" that legitimized the "election" of Hugo Chávez in 1998 when the other groups that monitored the election called it rife with fraud. There is a reason that Carter is known as never having met a dictator that he didn't love (a reputation first earned after Carter sang the praises of Nicolae Ceaușescu of Romania).

              But his work with Habitat for Humanity is definitely admirable.
              From Waging Peace: Venezuela, you're speaking of this election, no doubt:
              The Carter Center's 43-person team noted the effectiveness of the country's new automated vote-count system, the first national electronic system in the world.

              And not this one:
              The Carter Center concluded that while the election irregularities would not have changed the 2000 presidential outcome, in which Hugo Chávez won with 60 percent of the vote, the significant politicization of the elections and organizational deficiencies contributed to a lack of confidence in the process and the results for positions other than president, leading the Center to characterize the July 2000 elections as flawed.

              Cherry picking, Rogue, we've talked about this. If it's not okay for Jorge to do it in science, it's not okay for you to do it in politics, either.

              In order to single Carter out for his kindnesses toward Ceausescu, it would be necessary to show that his predecessors behaved differently. No doubt you're speaking of this speech:
              This is the fourth visit by President Ceausescu to the United States, and my predecessors have honored themselves by visiting the nation of Romania.

              Cherry picking, Rogue, we've talked about this. If it's not okay for Jorge to do it in science, it's not okay for you to do it in politics, either.

              As ever, Jesse

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                So, Does he make it to Heaven?
                Of course not.



                First, there'd have to be a heaven.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
                  Cherry picking, Rogue, we've talked about this. If it's not okay for Jorge to do it in science, it's not okay for you to do it in politics, either.
                  Cherry picking, Rogue, we've talked about this. If it's not okay for Jorge to do it in science, it's not okay for you to do it in politics, either.

                  As ever, Jesse
                  This must be that echo chamber thing JimL is always mumbling about.
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
                    From Waging Peace: Venezuela, you're speaking of this election, no doubt:
                    The Carter Center's 43-person team noted the effectiveness of the country's new automated vote-count system, the first national electronic system in the world.

                    And not this one:
                    The Carter Center concluded that while the election irregularities would not have changed the 2000 presidential outcome, in which Hugo Chávez won with 60 percent of the vote, the significant politicization of the elections and organizational deficiencies contributed to a lack of confidence in the process and the results for positions other than president, leading the Center to characterize the July 2000 elections as flawed.

                    Cherry picking, Rogue, we've talked about this. If it's not okay for Jorge to do it in science, it's not okay for you to do it in politics, either.

                    In order to single Carter out for his kindnesses toward Ceausescu, it would be necessary to show that his predecessors behaved differently. No doubt you're speaking of this speech:
                    This is the fourth visit by President Ceausescu to the United States, and my predecessors have honored themselves by visiting the nation of Romania.

                    Cherry picking, Rogue, we've talked about this. If it's not okay for Jorge to do it in science, it's not okay for you to do it in politics, either.

                    As ever, Jesse
                    Color me unimpressed that Carter's group says that the election (and I'm talking about the one in 1998) that Carter's group declared was legitimate was above board. Now there's an unbiased source

                    As for Ceaușescu I'm talking about the laudatory praise that Carter heaped upon him (gushingly referring to a murderous tyrant as a "great man" among other things) not visiting the country.

                    Can't accuse you of cherry picking because you weren't even within a mile of the trees.

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
                      Of course not.



                      First, there'd have to be a heaven.
                      The fact that you're always offering cookies to induce people to come over to the dark side is why I call you the devil's baker.


                      The above is an excuse and explanation for offering you a smiley for your use Lao.gif

                      Yeah, I know it's a pancake but it was the closest I could find. At least it has horns.

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
                        You'll notice I called him my favorite ex-President. He was, in my opinion, too idealistic for the position, and it cost us as a nation. But he did accomplish one thing all of us would agree was awesome, as president. It was the topline achievement credited in his Peace Prize from 2002.
                        During his presidency (1977-1981), Carter's mediation was a vital contribution to the Camp David Accords between Israel and Egypt, in itself a great enough achievement to qualify for the Nobel Peace Prize.

                        Most of the major crises he oversaw afterwards were fallout from that achievement, either directly as in the oil embargo, or indirectly as in the Iranian hostage crisis. But that one achievement was the pick that cracked the ice for Israel, allowing them for the first time in their history as a modern nation to have at least one border with a country no longer at war with them. And in doing so, he created a world with at least the possibility for general peace in (pet peeve alert) what Americans call the Mideast, and nearly everyone else calls southwest Asia.

                        As ever, Jesse
                        Rushing between posts yesterday, I wrote:

                        "or indirectly as in the Iranian hostage crisis"

                        No. That's not right. I should not have linked the Iranian hostage crisis to Camp David. The dominant linkage was to our support for the Shah.

                        As ever, Jesse

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                          Color me unimpressed that Carter's group says that the election (and I'm talking about the one in 1998) that Carter's group declared was legitimate was above board. Now there's an unbiased source
                          There's a lot of ways to describe Jimmy. Biased isn't one of them. The man was and is honest to a fault. And let's lose the lols on that until you can develop some unbiased cred yourself. You couldn't even bring yourself to congratulate Barack on taking down Osama. Reading that, back then, was a serious "whoa" moment for me.

                          The thing is, I know you can put your personal feeling aside when you're doing science. I can't get around that, and it's so ... disappointing ... maybe that's not quite the right word, but close ... to me that you can't do the same thing on politics. You have the ability over there. Why can't you use it over here?

                          Please don't take this as anything other than a compliment. You're not doing anything that all too many others do here in Civics. The difference is that I expect more from you because I respect you more than I respect them.

                          As for Ceaușescu I'm talking about the laudatory praise that Carter heaped upon him (gushingly referring to a murderous tyrant as a "great man" among other things) not visiting the country.
                          The point being that no one prior to Carter treated that tyrant, or any other tyrant for that matter, any differently, so long as they were on our side. From Pinochet to the Shah, during the Cold War — and the Ceau visit was very much still within the Cold War — the breaks we took from supporting tyrants were filled by installing them. Singling Carter out on that is cherry picking of the same species as singling Darwin out for his Victorian attitudes toward race.

                          Can't accuse you of cherry picking because you weren't even within a mile of the trees.
                          Actually, you can. See above.

                          As ever, Jesse

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            This must be that echo chamber thing JimL is always mumbling about.
                            Wednesdays I have two 4-hour lectures, 1p-5p, and 6p-10p. Everything in between is done in a rush.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
                              There's a lot of ways to describe Jimmy. Biased isn't one of them. The man was and is honest to a fault.
                              Honesty reveals bias.
                              "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                              There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Rethink that one, Taoist - any human that has no bias isn't human. Carter most certainly does have a bias; you can indeed be honest and biased at the same time.

                                Also, Rogue was talking about the source, not Carter himself.
                                "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                                "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

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