"Five Israeli talking points, debunked".... Interesting

[Juvenal]

Which is where abrogation comes in. The later ayah canceling out the former. Mohammed practiced the "convert or die" method himself, and had somewhere between 600 and 900 Jews beheaded at one event. "Mo" was quite the terrorist himself, and going by the Sahih hadith, he admits to being made "victorious through terror".

There's a story that says Ali had an actual listing of the ayah in the order they were revealed, and there are plenty of ayah that can be easily placed in the correct temporal order, but outside of that, different scholars support different timing. Different scholars give different takes on which ahadith are sahih as well.

If you cite the Bible, you cite chapter and verse, right? If you're citing ahadith, you need to do the same. I'm not familiar with the one you're citing. Ref, please.

As ever, Jesse

[rogue06]

Which is where abrogation comes in. The later ayah canceling out the former. Mohammed practiced the "convert or die" method himself, and had somewhere between 600 and 900 Jews beheaded at one event. "Mo" was quite the terrorist himself, and going by the Sahih hadith, he admits to being made "victorious through terror".

Exactly. In the Qur'an if two verses are viewed as contradictory the later verses rescinded or abrogated the earlier ones. So the early verses that preach toleration like the oft quoted Surah 2:256 ("Let there be no compulsion in religion") was abrogated by Surah 9:5 (all Muslim scholars agree that the ninth surah was the very last portion of the Qur'an that was revealed) which tells Muslims:

And when the sacred months have passed, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

This view can be seen throughout the ninth surah such as 9:73

O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them...

and 9:123

O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty

So warfare against non-Muslims was mandated by Muhammad.

This is confirmed by what we read in the hadiths including the ones venerated as being authoritative like the Sahih Muslim and Sahih al-Bukhari:

Sahih Muslim 1:33: The Messenger of Allah said: "I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer and pay zakat."

Sahih al-Bukhari 2:24: "Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."

Sahih al-Bukhari 8:387: "Allah's Apostle said, 'I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.' And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and their reckoning will be with Allah.'"

Sahih al-Bukhari 60:80: "The Verse:--'You (true Muslims) are the best of peoples ever raised up for mankind.' means, the best of peoples for the people, as you bring them with chains on their necks till they embrace Islam."

And while lao is absolutely correct in pointing out that Christianity has many instances of people being forcibly converted. Nobody denies that. But the difference is such forced conversions go directly against the teachings of Christ in stark contrast to Islam where coerced conversions are mandated.

[tabibito]

I think it's important to keep the history straight, too. The muslim conquests were just as awful as you describe, but they began after Muhammad died.

I do believe this is correct. Studies to date suggest that the Islam of today is not what it was before Turkish converts decided that pogroms were an acceptable practice.

[Cow Poke]

And this relates to the publicly stated aim of Hamas to kill all Jews how?

Yeah

[Spartacus]

This sounds like a good excuse to wave away pretty much anything in scripture you don't agree with - just decide that bit's optional!

Welcome to Protestantism

[Spartacus]

let me ask you one Spartacus who is purposly targeting civlians those set hteir bomb and missle on schools, hosptials etc..

or those who pick military targets that have purposly been put in residencel areas and warns the residents that they are going to bomb those targets and to get out of the area. why are you ignroing that Isreasl warns noncombantants who for some resaon or other sont'[ move out of the area.

no one wants innocents killed but you are backign the wrong horse here you ignore the fact that Ireal unlike Hamas and others trys to minimize the deaths of innocents. Hamas purposly goes after non military targets.

Frankly, I don't see why the artillery and aerial bombardments are necessary in light of the effectiveness of the Iron Dome. Israel's not the Middle East's underdog anymore. They can stop the missiles effectively without relying on tactics that have such high civilian casualty rates.

I've also been wondering why it is that these warnings could not be used as easily by the terrorists themselves to relocate themselves, if not their arsenals.

[tabibito]

The iron dome won't be effective when Israel runs out of ABMs. Rockets are dirt cheap, easy and fast to construct. ABMs are none of that. Rockets being launched by the thousands will deplete the ABM stock over the course of time, and then the missiles that Hamas has in store can be used with impunity against a wholly defenceless target.

In the event, when warnings are issued, the common practice is not to vacate, but to call the neighbours and fill the targetted building with people.

[Darth Executor]

I've also been wondering why it is that these warnings could not be used as easily by the terrorists themselves to relocate themselves, if not their arsenals.

Yes, this is a key point. The justification for dropping bombs on someone's house is that terrorists fired rockets from it. But the terrorist probably fires the rocket and takes off, particularly if Israel warns that the house is gonna get bombed. There's no point to flattening the house, other than to make the owner's life miserable.

[One Bad Pig]

Yes, this is a key point. The justification for dropping bombs on someone's house is that terrorists fired rockets from it. But the terrorist probably fires the rocket and takes off, particularly if Israel warns that the house is gonna get bombed. There's no point to flattening the house, other than to make the owner's life miserable.

You'd think people would get the idea that perhaps they shouldn't let their house be used for such activity.

[Spartacus]

The iron dome won't be effective when Israel runs out of ABMs. Rockets are dirt cheap, easy and fast to construct. ABMs are none of that. Rockets being launched by the thousands will deplete the ABM stock over the course of time, and then the missiles that Hamas has in store can be used with impunity against a wholly defenceless target.

There doesn't seem to be any similar concern about Israel's stock of artillery and air ordnance.

In the event, when warnings are issued, the common practice is not to vacate, but to call the neighbours and fill the targetted building with people.

If they have enough time to call in the neighbors to try to convince the Israeli military not to obliterate their home, surely the terrorists would have enough time to evacuate themselves and whatever ordnance they care to take with them.

[lilpixieofterror]

What reason do the Gazan civilians have to believe that they will be allowed back to their homes and property (regardless of whether it has been reduced to rubble) when/if the conflict ends?

Gosh Spart, perhaps Hammas should be ran out of power or at the very least they should stop supporting acts of terrorism against Israel. Imagine that, somebody bombs your citizens, launches rockets into your country, and shows no signs of stopping and when action is taken against such actions. Somehow Palestine ends up being the victims. Truly amazing because they don't care about peace. If they did, they would stop listening to their terrorist bosses that make their lives hell that ensure thousands of them are killed when Israel finally reacts to the bombings of their citizens.

[lilpixieofterror]

Frankly, I don't see why the artillery and aerial bombardments are necessary in light of the effectiveness of the Iron Dome. Israel's not the Middle East's underdog anymore. They can stop the missiles effectively without relying on tactics that have such high civilian casualty rates.

I've also been wondering why it is that these warnings could not be used as easily by the terrorists themselves to relocate themselves, if not their arsenals.

They reality is though that sooner or later, you would run out of ways to shoot down these rockets as the cost of shooting them down comes to be very expensive and they pop up faster than your rate of fire or your ability to replenish your missiles to take them out. If Hammas really cared about their civilians, perhaps they should stop calling for acts of Genocide against Jews and the west and actually work at restoring their fallen infrastructure and crippled country?

[Jedidiah]

Frankly, I don't see why the artillery and aerial bombardments are necessary in light of the effectiveness of the Iron Dome. Israel's not the Middle East's underdog anymore. They can stop the missiles effectively without relying on tactics that have such high civilian casualty rates.

This is one of the dumber things I have read on the topic. Evil men are tossing rockets at civilian areas so let's just try to stop most of them and let the evil men keep on tossing rockets. That makes a great deal of sense - not.

[Spartacus]

This is one of the dumber things I have read on the topic. Evil men are tossing rockets at civilian areas so let's just try to stop most of them and let the evil men keep on tossing rockets. That makes a great deal of sense - not.

If you can't get at the bad men without causing large numbers of civilian casualties, and the bad men-- despite their best efforts-- aren't actually hurting you, just maybe bombarding them is a waste of valuable military resources.

[lilpixieofterror]

If you can't get at the bad men without causing large numbers of civilian casualties, and the bad men-- despite their best efforts-- aren't actually hurting you, just maybe bombarding them is a waste of valuable military resources.

So launching rockets and sending suicide bombers into a country with the expressed intent to cause a genocide against Jews and spreading this death and destruction across the entire planet isn't hurting people and isn't causing trouble. I don't think you really understand the mentality of the people that Israel is dealing with. These are people who said they would stop at nothing to drive Israel into the sea and kill every Jew they run into. Do you suppose it is possible to reason with such people?