"Five Israeli talking points, debunked".... Interesting

[Cow Poke]

Just two observations

1. That's a huge generalization.

It's a huge generalization that Hammas wants Jews dead?

2. It's hard to get people angry at someone who doesn't seem to do anything wrong.

You're not married, are you?

[Cow Poke]

And the sad thing is that it doesn't have to be that way!

Correct. When I was in Israel, my guide was a secular Jew -- not into the religion at all. She introduced me to Muslim friends, and we had some interesting conversations. The Muslims clearly denounced the "Death to Israel' thing, and asked me "why would I want them dead when so many of them are my family". In Jerusalem, it's actually difficult to tell on the street when you pass from the Christian quarter to the Muslim quarter. They get along quite well. Now, GRANTED, they'll admit it's because they're after tourist dollars, and "dollars flow more freely when there is no tension". I'm just sayin'.

[Sparko]

Sparticus, how would you react if the Cherokee nation decided to "end the European occupation of our lands" and started shooting bombs and rockets at US civilians? Would you cheer them on because they have been repressed for 100 years and this country belonged to them once?

[Teallaura]

I dunno, people seem to get mad at me pretty often

But seriously, you're talking to a group of Christians-- you've gotta expect someone to bring up Jesus in response to a statement like that. Or, you know, any number of other Bible passages about the persecution of the innocent. There's a legitimate point to be made there, but that's not exactly the best way to make it to this audience

Actually, that's not the most obvious - or correct - answer to his point.

Bullies pick on the weak - not the people that wrong them. Nation-states/governments can and do act a lot like individuals at times and are perfectly capable of developing a bullying mentality (along with virtually every other mentality - see North Korea for paranoia...).

[tabibito]

2. It's hard to get people angry at someone who doesn't seem to do anything wrong.

I dunno - the Nazis didn't seem to have that much difficulty. And if the Jews had fought back then, the Nazis would have lost no time saying "See - just goes to prove our point" ... that's what the extremists are doing in Palestine. If you think the point is over-stated, just look at that yellow arabic "N" and replace it with a yellow 6 point star.

[Zymologist]

There seems to be a lot of willingness to ignore Hamas' stated intent of genocide....

[seer]

Just a few points from the Hamas Charter. If you think that Israel can have a lasting peace with these people you are irrational:

'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' (Preamble)


'The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him.' (Article 7)

'The day the enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In the face of the Jews' usurpation, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised.' (Article 15)

[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility.' (Article 13)

http://thejerusalemfund.org/www.thej...s/charter.html

[Spartacus]

Sparticus, how would you react if the Cherokee nation decided to "end the European occupation of our lands" and started shooting bombs and rockets at US civilians? Would you cheer them on because they have been repressed for 100 years and this country belonged to them once?

[Spartacus]

Bullies pick on the weak - not the people that wrong them. Nation-states/governments can and do act a lot like individuals at times and are perfectly capable of developing a bullying mentality (along with virtually every other mentality - see North Korea for paranoia...).

And suddenly I can't tell which side you're arguing for

[tabibito]

In the face of the stated aims of Hamas et al to blast every Jew into oblivion - does it not strike anyone as strange that the Jews have been so easily painted as the malefactors?

[seer]

In the face of the stated aims of Hamas et al to blast every Jew into oblivion - does it not strike anyone as strange that the Jews have been so easily painted as the malefactors?

On could wonder if there is a spiritual blindness in all of this.

[Spartacus]

In the face of the stated aims of Hamas et al to blast every Jew into oblivion - does it not strike anyone as strange that the Jews have been so easily painted as the malefactors?

It's not inconceivable that this is a story without heroes in positions of power.

[tabibito]

On could wonder if there is a spiritual blindness in all of this.

Oh good - it isn't just me after all.

[Sparko]

nope. Just an analogy. The Indians were here first, and we took their land. Would they not be justified in demanding it back? If they decided to start a war, and claimed that they would not rest until every european invader was killed, how would you react? support them? claim they were nuts? If the US Military attacked them back would they be justified?

The situation is similar to that in the middle east. Hamas claims the jews invaded their land and they are determined to destroy every Jew to get it back. You seem to be in support of that, and against the Jews using force to defend themselves.

[Spartacus]

nope. Just an analogy. The Indians were here first, and we took their land. Would they not be justified in demanding it back? If they decided to start a war, and claimed that they would not rest until every european invader was killed, how would you react? support them? claim they were nuts? If the US Military attacked them back would they be justified?

The situation is similar to that in the middle east. Hamas claims the jews invaded their land and they are determined to destroy every Jew to get it back. You seem to be in support of that, and against the Jews using force to defend themselves.

I don't oppose the use of force against terrorism. I oppose disproportionate and non-discriminating use of force. Welcome to Just War Theory, population: not Israel.