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Voter ID Laws Are Not Racist...

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  • #16
    Originally posted by square_peg View Post
    *patiently whistles
    *drums fingers on desk
    *checks watch

    Done ranting yet? Okay, now listen up. I PERSONALLY DO NOT BELIEVE THESE LAWS HAD RACIST INTENT. Read and re-read that capitalized sentence as many times as necessary until it sinks in. That said, here's why some people do think that.

    1. There are actually quite a few people in this country who are eligible to vote but lack ID.
    1a. The Brennan Center for Justice reports that the number may be as high as 11%.
    2. It logically follows that if ID is required to be able to vote, then those particular folks who lack ID can't vote.

    Now, what's a demographic that has a disproportionately high number of people who lack ID? People of color, who tend to vote Democratic. The concern, then, is that by making ID possession a requirement for voting eligibility, policymakers are preventing some people of color from casting ballots, which, besides serving as a burden that doesn't affect white people quite as much, also skews the true numbers in favor of the Republican party, since people who would've voted Democratic were excluded.

    Understand the issue now? As usual, you did little more than mock something that you didn't even understand. You're basically Jorge in that regard.
    Keeping in mind that I'm taking you to be playing the devil's advocate here, and not necessarily advancing this argument yourself....

    This argument seems odd to me. How would it not apply to any other requirement for ID, such as to purchase alcohol, or gain entrance into certain government buildings? The only response I've seen to that is that voting is a right, and purchasing alcohol (for example) is not, but that doesn't address the idea that requirement of the ID would be racist because of the demographic that would be most affected by it.
    I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by square_peg View Post
      1. There are actually quite a few people in this country who are eligible to vote but lack ID.
      1a. The Brennan Center for Justice reports that the number may be as high as 11%.
      2. It logically follows that if ID is required to be able to vote, then those particular folks who lack ID can't vote.
      It seems that 2 does not follow, unless you add an additional premise that those who currently lack ID are incapable of obtaining an ID.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by square_peg View Post
        That's apparently true as far as the argument itself goes, but it's a far cry from "Therefore, there couldn't have been any racist intent behind the plan."


        I personally don't think they were intended to be, but at the same time, I do think it's possible that some people may support such laws for racially influenced reasons. Either way, I was mostly challenging seer's questionable logic, not making a definitive statement.
        Do you have any hard evidence of racism or am I suppose to believe it is racism because you said so?
        "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
        GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by square_peg View Post
          Ah, here comes Sparko to once again attack a position that I don't even hold. I'd think that would get exhausting after a while, but apparently not.
          Ummm yeah, you are arguing just for that position. It isn't Sparko's fault that you don't even know what you're arguing for or against. You said it was racist, so present evidence it was. Where is your evidence or is a lack of evidence just more evidence that there is a conspiracy to cover up the truth?
          "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
          GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
            Do you have any hard evidence of racism or am I suppose to believe it is racism because you said so?
            Holy unprintable swear words.

            I EXPLICITLY SAID IN THAT EXACT SAME POST THAT YOU YOURSELF JUST QUOTED THAT I DON'T THINK IT WAS RACISM.
            Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

            I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
              Keeping in mind that I'm taking you to be playing the devil's advocate here, and not necessarily advancing this argument yourself....

              This argument seems odd to me. How would it not apply to any other requirement for ID, such as to purchase alcohol, or gain entrance into certain government buildings?
              I think it would apply. But what's the relevance here?

              The only response I've seen to that is that voting is a right, and purchasing alcohol (for example) is not, but that doesn't address the idea that requirement of the ID would be racist because of the demographic that would be most affected by it.
              I think the argument is that the laws were passed specifically to keep minorities down, which by definition would qualify as institutional racism.



              Originally posted by Joel View Post
              It seems that 2 does not follow, unless you add an additional premise that those who currently lack ID are incapable of obtaining an ID.
              It's not that easy for some people to obtain ID. But either way, there are ultimately people who for whatever reason haven't obtained ID by Election Day, which means that they're prohibited from exercising what should be a constitutional right.
              Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

              I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by square_peg View Post
                Holy unprintable swear words.

                I EXPLICITLY SAID IN THAT EXACT SAME POST THAT YOU YOURSELF JUST QUOTED THAT I DON'T THINK IT WAS RACISM.
                And yet you said:

                "That's apparently true as far as the argument itself goes, but it's a far cry from "Therefore, there couldn't have been any racist intent behind the plan."



                Do you ever get tired of contradicting yourself, your majesty?
                "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by square_peg View Post
                  I think it would apply. But what's the relevance here?
                  It just makes me wonder why I've never seen anyone oppose ID requirements for the purchase of alcohol (for example) on the same basis as opposition to voting ID.
                  I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
                    It just makes me wonder why I've never seen anyone oppose ID requirements for the purchase of alcohol (for example) on the same basis as opposition to voting ID.
                    The usual response is that there is no constitutional right to buy alcohol while there is to vote. But I don't think the solution is to get rid of ID requirements, but rather to make sure that people who have trouble getting IDs for whatever reason can get one. This would probably also help the economy because it would make it easier for people to get jobs.
                    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                      And yet you said:

                      "That's apparently true as far as the argument itself goes, but it's a far cry from "Therefore, there couldn't have been any racist intent behind the plan."



                      Do you ever get tired of contradicting yourself, your majesty?
                      And ALSO in the EXACT SAME POST, I explicitly said
                      I was mostly challenging seer's questionable logic
                      Do you not understand the concept of ultimately agreeing with a person while also pointing out a logical flaw in a specific argument that he uses?


                      Seriously. This stuff is written DIRECTLY in the post that YOU quoted. Zymologist read that same post and correctly understood where I stand on this issue. Why are you and Sparko seemingly utterly incapable of doing so?
                      Last edited by fm93; 07-02-2014, 09:17 PM.
                      Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

                      I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by square_peg View Post
                        The fact that you didn't feel any effects is NOT proof that Sparko didn't have the intent to punch you. Likewise, the supposed fact that there weren't negative effects from voter ID laws isn't proof that there was no negative intent behind them.
                        Like I said square, I was playing off the title and the fact that the left was saying that voter ID laws were racist (actually preventing minorities from voting). No one was speaking of "intent." And the fact is, they did not prevent minorities from voting. The so called racial result (fewer minorities voting) did not materialize. And I never believed it would - Blacks and Latinos are not stupid, they know how to get the necessary IDs.
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by square_peg View Post
                          I'm not sure what you find unclear. You believe that the voter ID laws weren't intended to be racist. As support for that belief, you cited a study that said there haven't been detrimental effects from those laws. But by itself, a lack of detrimental effects doesn't prove that there was no malicious intent. Here's an even simpler analogy than the one I already presented. Let's say that Sparko tries to sneak up behind you and punch you. (For the sake of this analogy, we'll say a prankster attached a "Punch me, I'm liberal" sign to your back.) However, his aim is even worse than his ability to accurately represent people's arguments, so he completely misses. Someone sees this and tells you "Hey. Sparko tried to punch you." You, of course, didn't feel his punch. The fact that you didn't feel any effects is NOT proof that Sparko didn't have the intent to punch you. Likewise, the supposed fact that there weren't negative effects from voter ID laws isn't proof that there was no negative intent behind them.
                          Argument from silence is a logical fallacy.

                          I could just as easily say that big foot tried to eat you, and just because you are still here is not proof that big foot didn't intend to eat you.

                          You can make any claim you want and say that just because there is no evidence for it is not proof that it isn't true.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by square_peg View Post
                            *patiently whistles
                            *drums fingers on desk
                            *checks watch

                            Done ranting yet? Okay, now listen up. I PERSONALLY DO NOT BELIEVE THESE LAWS HAD RACIST INTENT. Read and re-read that capitalized sentence as many times as necessary until it sinks in. That said, here's why some people do think that.

                            1. There are actually quite a few people in this country who are eligible to vote but lack ID.
                            1a. The Brennan Center for Justice reports that the number may be as high as 11%.
                            2. It logically follows that if ID is required to be able to vote, then those particular folks who lack ID can't vote.

                            Now, what's a demographic that has a disproportionately high number of people who lack ID? People of color, who tend to vote Democratic. The concern, then, is that by making ID possession a requirement for voting eligibility, policymakers are preventing some people of color from casting ballots, which, besides serving as a burden that doesn't affect white people quite as much, also skews the true numbers in favor of the Republican party, since people who would've voted Democratic were excluded. If true, the irony would be that those who claim that the laws would facilitate fair elections by preventing voter fraud are actually the ones causing unfair elections with those laws.

                            Understand the issue now? As usual, you did little more than mock something that you didn't even understand. You're basically Jorge in that regard.
                            And who's fault is it if someone doesn't have a valid ID? It's not the government's fault. There is nothing stopping someone from getting an ID card. Heck, you need an ID card for lots of other things besides voting. Like driving, traveling to another country. cashing a check. Opening a bank account. Getting into a bar. Buying alcohol or cigarettes. I don't think you can even get welfare without an ID card. Yet lots of minorities are on welfare. Should all those things stop requiring ID cards too because some people don't have one? Are they all discriminating against minorities?

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by square_peg View Post
                              It's not that easy for some people to obtain ID. But either way, there are ultimately people who for whatever reason haven't obtained ID by Election Day, which means that they're prohibited from exercising what should be a constitutional right.
                              "A valid North Carolina driver’s license, U.S. passport and various military IDs are among the acceptable forms of photo identification. A voter can also obtain a state-issued photo-ID from the Department of Motor Vehicles at no charge" - See more at: http://www.governor.state.nc.us/news....WJDBpihY.dpuf

                              How much easier could it be than free?

                              And personally I think that protecting a constitutional right by making sure those that exercise it are not abusing it is MORE important than using a photo ID for something mundane like buying beer. The whole purpose is to prevent voter fraud by someone voting as someone else. Which if you recall was a pretty big scandal in the last election. I think we should do everything we can to make sure our elections are not tampered with by unscrupulous scammers.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by seer View Post
                                Like I said square, I was playing off the title and the fact that the left was saying that voter ID laws were racist (actually preventing minorities from voting). No one was speaking of "intent." And the fact is, they did not prevent minorities from voting. The so called racial result (fewer minorities voting) did not materialize. And I never believed it would - Blacks and Latinos are not stupid, they know how to get the necessary IDs.
                                The link in your OP specifically mentions "those who think there's a hidden agenda," which implies intent.
                                Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

                                I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

                                Comment

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