Originally posted by firstfloor
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American Theocracy and Decline
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Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View PostYeah, so that's why our founders said things like these.
Oh wait, that doesn't support you at all.
Then you have things like this.
It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great Nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ.- Patrick Henry
Source.
Perhaps more importantly, just because you can show that certain people believed a certain (different) way, that doesn't establish either side's accuracy. Granting that the founding fathers felt as you suggest does not automatically grant that firstfloor is wrong in this case.
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Originally posted by firstfloor View PostThe constitution (secular) guarantees religious freedom. A theocracy would revoke it. It might try to create a monolithic Christian state under Biblical law (similar to Sharia).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1r1hsrQMj8
You've never looked at history at all have you?
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Originally posted by firstfloor View PostThe Treaty of Tripoli:
"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."
http://www.nobeliefs.com/Tripoli.htm
http://politicaloutcast.com/2013/06/...tian-religion/
It was a political tactic to assure the Muslims that this was not a religion to religion treaty, but a government to government treaty. Read the whole thing before responding please.
At most the Treaty of Tripoli would show that certain founders were inconsistent in their language, not that they never believed/made the statements I quoted. Two very different things to be sure.
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Originally posted by firstfloor View PostThe constitution (secular) guarantees religious freedom. A theocracy would revoke it. It might try to create a monolithic Christian state under Biblical law (similar to Sharia).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1r1hsrQMj8
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel04.html
The Continental-Confederation Congress, a legislative body that governed the United States from 1774 to 1789, contained an extraordinary number of deeply religious men. The amount of energy that Congress invested in encouraging the practice of religion in the new nation exceeded that expended by any subsequent American national government. Although the Articles of Confederation did not officially authorize Congress to concern itself with religion, the citizenry did not object to such activities. This lack of objection suggests that both the legislators and the public considered it appropriate for the national government to promote a nondenominational, nonpolemical Christianity.
Congress appointed chaplains for itself and the armed forces, sponsored the publication of a Bible, imposed Christian morality on the armed forces, and granted public lands to promote Christianity among the Indians. National days of thanksgiving and of "humiliation, fasting, and prayer" were proclaimed by Congress at least twice a year throughout the war. Congress was guided by "covenant theology," a Reformation doctrine especially dear to New England Puritans, which held that God bound himself in an agreement with a nation and its people. This agreement stipulated that they "should be prosperous or afflicted, according as their general Obedience or Disobedience thereto appears." Wars and revolutions were, accordingly, considered afflictions, as divine punishments for sin, from which a nation could rescue itself by repentance and reformation.
The first national government of the United States, was convinced that the "public prosperity" of a society depended on the vitality of its religion. Nothing less than a "spirit of universal reformation among all ranks and degrees of our citizens," Congress declared to the American people, would "make us a holy, that so we may be a happy people."
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostYeah right, like a secular government doesn't have the potential to be just as oppressive as a theocratic one when it comes to stifling religious freedom.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1r1hsrQMj8
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Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View PostIt cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great Nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ.- Patrick Henry.
"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."
http://www.nobeliefs.com/Tripoli.htm
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Originally posted by firstfloor View PostYou will only have free exercise of religion so long as you maintain strict church/state separation because free exercise applies to everybody and all religions. Governments have the power to coerce which is why you must keep religion out of government. Only a strictly secular government can guarantee freedom for everybody. In a theocracy you are either with us or against us and that is not freedom.
Oh wait, that doesn't support you at all.
Then you have things like this.
It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great Nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ.- Patrick Henry
Source.
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Originally posted by firstfloor View PostOnly a strictly secular government can guarantee freedom for everybody.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostWhy is it you blockheads ALWAYS refer to the "establishment clause", and totally ignore the "prohibition clause"? I bolded the part you ignore.
Last edited by firstfloor; 06-17-2014, 07:29 AM.
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Originally posted by firstfloor View Postp.s. The last bit of this video starting at 3:15 is amazing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBqa-...OHfIUXwIejK7xA
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p.s. The last bit of this video starting at 3:15 is amazing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBqa-...OHfIUXwIejK7xA
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Originally posted by firstfloor View PostAmerican values = Christian values = Christian Nation = Christian Theocracy = Leading to Abolition of the Establishment Clause = Un-American values.
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