American Theocracy and Decline

[Joel]

By tolerance, I mean that the government at its various levels should be blind to race, creed, colour, gender and sexual orientation. Individuals can be as biased as they like but governments should not aid intolerance as they currently do, for example, by giving tax relief to religious organisations.

An example of an organization working towards such tyranny is United in Purpose which is a 501c4 whose mission is to unite and equip like-minded conservative organizations to increase their reach, impact, and influence through the latest technology, research and marketing strategies for the purpose of bringing about a culture change in America based on Judeo-Christian principles. - in other words, a Christian Theocracy.

You made the distinction between government force and non-government action. Using things like "marketing strategies" to "bring about a culture change" would seem to be non-government action, yes?
It would seem the most you could complain about is not their purpose, but that the organization is tax exempt. But the government grants such tax exempt status to organizations of all stripes, relatively unbiased (other than the recent scandal about the IRS biasing against conservative groups).

Also, if the existence of tax-exempt organizations is a problem, it can easily be solved by eliminating gift taxes altogether. (Let's opt for equal freedom, rather than equal misery.)

Already ‘liberal’ seems to be a dirty word in these parts. Why is that when the U.S. was founded as a liberal democracy?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_democracy

The word "liberal" meant something far different in 1776 than it means today in the U.S. And the two meanings are largely in conflict with each other. You seem to be equivocating regarding the two.

[firstfloor]

I think you are misinformed about the state of religion in America.NORM

So, is this a discussion about the lunatic fringe?

Please listen to this segment of week’s DogmaDebate. At about 37 minutes – 43minutes:
http://www.spreaker.com/user/smalley...istian-hotline
“Sharia is probably better than what we have just now …. ”
Lydia Allen - “But wait, hold on, …. the person on the right values tradition and authority more than compassion, equality and social justice.”
This is part of a very good discussion with Lydia Allen who is introduced at the start of the show (for some reason she is listed as Lydia Smith in the credits) talking to David Smalley. Her de-conversion (I think she was Southern Baptist) started with the stem cell research controversy.

[Epoetker]

Church attendance and even statements of belief are much less reliable indicators of loyalty than they used to be in any case. May as well tie the discussion to the "Theocracy and Decline" bit:

My impression is the old fire still smolders in Catholic Poland, Orthodox Serbia and Russia and elsewhere. They may be a bunch of vodka-swilling rednecks with family feuds but they have something we don't: the Church still retains the loyalty of their elite, and there is no question as to her place in the public square.

Right now, America is the most important country in the world. We are living in the Pax Americana, which started in 1945. In US cities, you can drive ten blocks in any direction and run into a church. On my route to my church, I pass in the following order, a Jehovah's Witness hall, a Baptist church, a Lutheran church, a Melkite church, a Mormon tabernacle and an Episcopal church. The Episcopal and Catholic cathedrals are literally one block from each other, with a large Baptist church between them. This is why Christian evangelism is finished in the United States.

America is also schizophrenic. America is a Christian fortress, but its elite are universalist atheists. Support for American power is support for universalist atheism. Eventually, America's non-elite will figure this out.

I could write about this all day. Somebody could put together a really good book on Christendom, along the lines of Gibbon's work on the Roman Empire. Christendom was THE phenomenon, like the Muslim explosion in its latitudes. It's important stuff, because in our culture Christianity is the last tie to the metaphysical. (Think about the last secular ceremony you attended and how sterile it was. Contrast that with a wedding, funeral or baptism.) If Christendom disappears, the present is all there is and it is lights out. TFR (Total Fertility Rate) craters and you're replaced by a non-secular culture. We're in the interregnum between Christendom and whatever comes next.

Did I say Theocracy and Decline? How about Theocracy or decline?

All governments are in some sense theocratic, though the ideology may pretend to have no gods, or, like communism, actually have no gods. You can restrict theocracy to only apply at the local level, as the United States used to do before the War Between The States, or, like the Ottoman Caliphate, tolerate other religions as subject states within an empire, in which one religion exercises imperial domain over subject religions, like an emperor exercising imperial domain over subject Kings. The only way to not have theocracy is to have some form of anarchy.

If there is going to be a government, that government is going to control the schools, and openly or furtively control the churches, and make them teach a particular viewpoint. The question then is, what shall that viewpoint be?

If the official belief system bans too many heresies, as it does today, science and technology stagnates, because the scientific and technological way of thinking comes to be deemed hostile, subversive, and low status. Thus, for example, evidence is forbidden in Wikipedia. Only the voice of authority is deemed relevant. On the other hand, too much tolerance for hostile theocratic alien outside belief systems is likely to result in the official theocracy being infiltrated and overthrown by a more passionate, more self righteous, and more repressive belief system, as happened to theocratic Anglicanism.

As such, I do not judge Rush Limbaugh too harshly on church attendance, given the current general Christian malaise due to the growing recognition of the church's decline and its more and more open demonstration of its own subordination to the state. My only gut feeling is that when more of the elites wise up and start supporting actual church teaching again, Rush will be among those rushing back first.

[Jedidiah]

A traitor is worse than a stranger.

I have to go with Darth on this one.

[Jedidiah]

I don't personally know anybody who listens to him

I have a friend who listens to him regularly.

[Jedidiah]

That's because God actually works, unlike the wishy washy one Norm wants. Which just is about making people feel good without that icky sin stuff.

Yeah, that.

[Darth Executor]

I'm glad you have your priorities straight

A traitor is worse than a stranger.

[NormATive]

As long as you pronounce it "KOObuh"

Oh, I do! I do! KooBah Viva!

NORM

[Cow Poke]

Did you bring me any cigars? Viva Cuba!

NORM

As long as you pronounce it "KOObuh"

[NormATive]

He better not go to Cuba, then... I just visited with one of our Missionaries to Cuba, and Christianity is growing like CRAZY there.

Did you bring me any cigars? Viva Cuba!

NORM

[Cow Poke]

He clearly said that he was an agnostic - he said that he just wasn't 100% convinced. That's agnostic in my book. I think he said that he "grew up Methodist." I don't think he attends church. I know people who live in his neighborhood in Florida, and he rarely leaves his house. Maybe he watches some televangelist show! LOL!

I remember this clearly, as I was struggling with my faith at the time. Since he was someone I had a lot of respect for (at the time), his confession helped me gain the courage to leave my faith. I figured if someone like Rushbo could be an agnostic, then so could I.

BTW, this was before he was syndicated. I was doing an internship in New York City in the late 80s, and heard him on WABC or something like that. I was living in a crappy apartment, getting mugged frequently and related to Limbaugh's white man rage.

NORM

[NormATive]

Are you sure he wasn't using "agnostic" as in "not really having an opinion one way or another" on certain issues? I've heard him refer to himself as being agnostic in that manner, but I've never heard him say it regarding God.

On the other hand, other than being a Methodist, I really can't find a citation where he claims to be a believer.

I used to listen to him all the time, but not in the last 6 or 7 years. It just got old.

He clearly said that he was an agnostic - he said that he just wasn't 100% convinced. That's agnostic in my book. I think he said that he "grew up Methodist." I don't think he attends church. I know people who live in his neighborhood in Florida, and he rarely leaves his house. Maybe he watches some televangelist show! LOL!

I remember this clearly, as I was struggling with my faith at the time. Since he was someone I had a lot of respect for (at the time), his confession helped me gain the courage to leave my faith. I figured if someone like Rushbo could be an agnostic, then so could I.

BTW, this was before he was syndicated. I was doing an internship in New York City in the late 80s, and heard him on WABC or something like that. I was living in a crappy apartment, getting mugged frequently and related to Limbaugh's white man rage.

NORM

[KingsGambit]

Conservative agnostics > liberal Christians.

I'm glad you have your priorities straight

[Darth Executor]

Why, then, do Christians hang on his every word? I never quite understood this - even when I listened daily to his show. I knew the difference between the politics and my faith. Actually, Limbaugh kind of supplanted my faith for a time after I quit Christianity - until I converted to Judaism, in a way. I was a volunteer for the Alan Keyes campaign, as I am strongly opposed to abortion.

NORM

Conservative agnostics > liberal Christians.

[KingsGambit]

Why, then, do Christians hang on his every word? I never quite understood this - even when I listened daily to his show. I knew the difference between the politics and my faith. Actually, Limbaugh kind of supplanted my faith for a time after I quit Christianity - until I converted to Judaism, in a way. I was a volunteer for the Alan Keyes campaign, as I am strongly opposed to abortion.

NORM

I don't personally know anybody who listens to him