American Theocracy and Decline

[Cerealman]

You will only have free exercise of religion so long as you maintain strict church/state separation because free exercise applies to everybody and all religions. Governments have the power to coerce which is why you must keep religion out of government. Only a strictly secular government can guarantee freedom for everybody. In a theocracy you are either with us or against us and that is not freedom.

Could you define that "freedom" for me?

[lilpixieofterror]

You will only have free exercise of religion so long as you maintain strict church/state separation because free exercise applies to everybody and all religions. Governments have the power to coerce which is why you must keep religion out of government. Only a strictly secular government can guarantee freedom for everybody. In a theocracy you are either with us or against us and that is not freedom.

In other words, Christians can't vote for people they agree with.

[lilpixieofterror]

p.s. The last bit of this video starting at 3:15 is amazing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBqa-...OHfIUXwIejK7xA

Translation: *sticks fingers in ears and screams:* "LALALALA! I CAN'T HEAR YOU!"

[Carrikature]

You mean that is not consistent with the way religious freedom has been changed to mean today. It was quite consistent with the original understanding of the Bill of Rights.

The establishment clause is part of the Bill of Rights. It would be pretty silly to say it wasn't consistent with itself. Further, the NC requirement is in direct violation of the "No Religious Test Clause".

ETA:
I do realize, ofc, that strictly speaking the "No Religious Test Clause" would not have applied to state constitutions at the time.

[Jedidiah]

You do realize, do you not, the original "keep government out of religion" protection referred to Christian denominations. At one point the United States Supreme Court ruled that it was not legal to start a college that was not based upon the Christian religion.

I seem to have forgotten the case in point in this comment. Do we have any scholars who can point to this specific case?

[Jedidiah]

Whoa whoa whoa. Reread that first cite from the NC Constitution. That's NOT religious freedom. Religious freedom does not mean requiring someone to affirm the truth of God and the Protestant faith in order to hold office.

You mean that is not consistent with the way religious freedom has been changed to mean today. It was quite consistent with the original understanding of the Bill of Rights.

[Jedidiah]

True, but some of the quotes I gave certainly imply that they did codify many of their beliefs.

ETA: Or at least believed that they had done so.

There's the rub. The intents of the founders are no longer politically correct and must be eliminated by lies.

[Jedidiah]

Except the establishment clause did not necessarily mean what we claim it means today since many of the early states did have tax supported churches. So no, no national Church, but state churches were OK.

A whole lot has changed in that respect, as I mentioned in my first post.

[Jedidiah]

I actually started to answer this with a serious response, but I'm thinking you're just a nutter.

I have tried for a long while to avoid this conclusion. He makes it far too difficult, I give up. He is either completely nuts, or a carefully planning troll.

[Jedidiah]

I now begin to think maybe to comments suggesting mental illness on your part may be true. What are these insane comments supposed to show besides your lack?

American values = Christian values = Christian Nation = Christian Theocracy = Leading to Abolition of the Establishment Clause = Un-American values.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTLfLNA-nmo
The result will be wall-to-wall nonsense on television and in the schools about angels and the like, dumbing down and decline. Only so many will be prepared to fake it for the sake of jobs and promotion and the clever ones will go overseas to where they can live honestly.

[Cerealman]

How Christianity owns American culture and is successfully building an American Theocracy is described in this wonderful speech from 1972.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yflQd...ukTekgSRZrjadw
See how much has already been lost. With theocracy comes intolerance and decline. It is time for American atheists to stand up and be counted and take back their country from the theocrats.

hmmm if it makes you feel better, then go for it.

[Cow Poke]

It's a fair cop. Sorry about that.

It's pretty hard to get away with these days -- it had every appearance of "copied work", and is incredibly easy to Google.

[firstfloor]

Are you related to Mickiel? He ALSO plagiarizes stuff in violation of the rules.

It's a fair cop. Sorry about that.

[Cow Poke]

Of the quotes you provided, only the first one by John Adams mentions the constitution at all. Even then, he has not claimed that the Constitution is a Christian document...

The Constitution comes from the American Indians who got it from the Sky People.

[Carrikature]

Do you really think that a government that is ruled by people of a certain religion should give political office to people of other/no religion/s? How is that stopping someone from practicing their religion? Can you think of any religion that requires a person run for political office? I don't see how running for political office is necessarily tied to freedom of religion.

Running for political office becomes tied to freedom of religion when the law requires a particular religious affiliation in order to hold office.

An elected official would be expected to generally represent their constituents. A person does not necessarily need to share religious affiliation to do this well, but it wouldn't be surprising to find that the elected official does in fact share that affiliation. However, this is extremely different from requiring an elected official to share that affiliation. Such a requirement is quite obviously NOT in support of religious freedom.

I'd say that at minimum John Adams, and George Washington disagree. Those first three quotes I put up seem to heavily lean on the idea that the constitution is indeed a Christian document.

Of the quotes you provided, only the first one by John Adams mentions the constitution at all. Even then, he has not claimed that the Constitution is a Christian document, but that it was intended to govern a "moral and religious" people. Christianity...Protestantism isn't the only form of 'religion' that would qualify.

So you won't even agree that such is implied by what they said?



Oh well, I think I am going to go play some games for a while. I'll check back later. Sales on GOG might get distracting too though.

The majority of the quotes on the site you linked, and those you specifically cited, are very obviously statements about religion and Christianity. They aren't statements about the Constitution, and those that are generally date in the mid 1800s. As best I can tell, many of the founders (not sure about all) believed that the foundation upon which morality itself relies is the Christian God and associated practices. Despite that, they did not clearly create the Constitution as a Christian document. Had they done so, the establishment clause would be pretty clearly in conflict.