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My stance on abortion

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  • Bill the Cat
    replied
    Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
    The Unborn Victims of Violence Act still does not make a fetus a full person in that it is not stopping the murder of these persons.
    It criminalizes the murder of the fetus as a separate crime UNLESS it is the mother (or her medical proxy) committing the murder.

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  • Jedidiah
    replied
    The Unborn Victims of Violence Act still does not make a fetus a full person in that it is not stopping the murder of these persons.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bill the Cat
    replied
    Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
    I agree heartily with this. However to get it into law it will require a legal definition of human that includes the unborn.
    It actually already exists. That's why the Democrats fought so hard to defeat Laci and Conner's Law.

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  • Epoetker
    replied
    I've always been pro-life, due to little things like a history of biology classes giving me a greater personal, scientific, and emotional level of experiences and contacts with people who may be called upon to perform abortions.

    But since it's also a policy of mine to support whatever feminists and liberals most loudly decry(they keep talking about smashing patriarchy, which actually turns out to be pretty swell from a historical perspective,) I am also anti-choice, because pregnant women rarely make good ones alone.

    (Teal and everyone else with doctoring and nursing experience, please stop nodding your heads now.)

    Leave a comment:


  • Jedidiah
    replied
    Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
    . . .I am somewhat surprised that you don't think the soul is imparted at some point in time. Where/how does it come into play?
    The soul, IMHO is simply an aspect of the human being. It is always there from conception. I do not see this as some mysterious thing that gets inserted into a person giving them "personhood" at some point in time.

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  • Jedidiah
    replied
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    I have never used a "soul" argument in my pro-life debates. I just use "the fetus is a human being" - which is different from some legal definition of "person" - it is a biological definition. It is a distinct human being from the moment of conception. It is alive, it grows, has unique DNA, and will grow into an adult human being one day, barring disease, accident or murder. We all started out like this.
    I agree heartily with this. However to get it into law it will require a legal definition of human that includes the unborn.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sparko
    replied
    I have never used a "soul" argument in my pro-life debates. I just use "the fetus is a human being" - which is different from some legal definition of "person" - it is a biological definition. It is a distinct human being from the moment of conception. It is alive, it grows, has unique DNA, and will grow into an adult human being one day, barring disease, accident or murder. We all started out like this.


    "I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born." -- Ronald Reagan.

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  • Carrikature
    replied
    Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
    Carr, as you will expect I agree with you on all the pro abortion arguments you mention. It may surprise you to know that I also disagree with the whole idea that “some metaphysical soul” argument. I do not believe that a soul is imparted at some point in time. I would never use the “Imago Dei” argument myself though I do believe, as I am sure you expect, that man is made in the image of God (I am not sure what that really means though). As you would also expect I do see human rights as real things given by God. I would not be considered by many as a believer in sanctity of life in general as I do believe in capital punishment. I do not call myself “pro-life” for just the reason you mentioned. I am anti abortion period.

    While I do agree with much of the Pro Life argument my only argument against abortion is a legal one. Abortion is only free from the designation of murder because the fetus is not “legally” a human being. The legal prohibition against murder should apply to abortion. I know there may well be circumstances that would allow for abortion, not as many as are tossed around by the pro abortion forces however.

    So how to stop abortion? We will never stop it. No more than we can stop any other form of murder. We do not need any new legislative action to move against abortion unless it be a legal recognition of a fetus as a human being. We already have laws against murder. It is not complicated at all in my opinion.
    You're right, I am somewhat surprised that you don't think the soul is imparted at some point in time. Where/how does it come into play? I'm pleasantly surprised by your take on Imago Dei. For what it's worth, I don't think there's a way to reject it because there doesn't seem to be any way to know what it's supposed to describe. My rejection of it is mostly due to my lack of belief in God. I think you make a good point about legislative action. It's interesting to note that Roe v. Wade focused on right to privacy instead of the status of the fetus.


    Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
    I heartily agree with this in society today. It may never have been true that our government system was reliably able to make good laws in the best interest of it's citizens. This was recognized to some degree by the nations founders when we were formed as a Republic rather than a Democracy. I would never want to live in a real democracy. This however moves well away from the topic at hand.

    Leave a comment:


  • Carrikature
    replied
    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post


    How about you explain yourself and what you are fishing for here first?
    I like that gif!

    Leave a comment:


  • Bill the Cat
    replied
    Originally posted by seasanctuary View Post
    Which kinds of life, since we're rejecting disputable distinctions here?


    How about you explain yourself and what you are fishing for here first?

    Leave a comment:


  • Carrikature
    replied
    Originally posted by seasanctuary View Post
    Which kinds of life, since we're rejecting disputable distinctions here?
    I don't distinguish by quality or species type. However, I don't hold it as inviolate, either. When and how it can be violated is not something I've elaborated on, but perhaps I should.


    I'm open to discussing disputable distinctions. Just because I'm not convinced doesn't mean I can't be.

    Leave a comment:


  • seasanctuary
    replied
    Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
    However, a general sanctity of life is something I can get behind.
    Which kinds of life, since we're rejecting disputable distinctions here?

    Leave a comment:


  • Jedidiah
    replied
    Amen, Bill.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bill the Cat
    replied
    I am disappointed in the blatant contradiction in Public Law 108-212 that basically stipulates that the child in-utero is afforded separate legal protections from the mother, unless it it the mother (or her medically elected proxy) that is doing the harming of the child. On one hand, it validates the separate existence of the child in-utero, but makes an exception for abortion, which denies it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jedidiah
    replied
    Carr, as you will expect I agree with you on all the pro abortion arguments you mention. It may surprise you to know that I also disagree with the whole idea that “some metaphysical soul” argument. I do not believe that a soul is imparted at some point in time. I would never use the “Imago Dei” argument myself though I do believe, as I am sure you expect, that man is made in the image of God (I am not sure what that really means though). As you would also expect I do see human rights as real things given by God. I would not be considered by many as a believer in sanctity of life in general as I do believe in capital punishment. I do not call myself “pro-life” for just the reason you mentioned. I am anti abortion period.

    While I do agree with much of the Pro Life argument my only argument against abortion is a legal one. Abortion is only free from the designation of murder because the fetus is not “legally” a human being. The legal prohibition against murder should apply to abortion. I know there may well be circumstances that would allow for abortion, not as many as are tossed around by the pro abortion forces however.

    So how to stop abortion? We will never stop it. No more than we can stop any other form of murder. We do not need any new legislative action to move against abortion unless it be a legal recognition of a fetus as a human being. We already have laws against murder. It is not complicated at all in my opinion.

    At the same time, I think our system is generally unable to make laws in the interest of its citizens. Where majority rules, long-term self-interest is not necessarily present.
    I heartily agree with this in society today. It may never have been true that our government system was reliably able to make good laws in the best interest of it's citizens. This was recognized to some degree by the nations founders when we were formed as a Republic rather than a Democracy. I would never want to live in a real democracy. This however moves well away from the topic at hand.

    Leave a comment:

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