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My stance on abortion

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  • My stance on abortion

    I find most of the arguments for either side either moronic or ineffective. I reject the "this is my body I can do what I want with it" argument. Nothing in our legal system allows such wanton freedom. I reject the "I didn't consent to having my life mandated to support another life for 9 months" argument. Consent is implicit with engaging in sexual acts, in my opinion. I reject the "it's not a real person yet" argument. Personhood is indefinable. There's no question whatsoever that the process gives rise to a human life, even if there's no specific point we can identify as 'aware'. On the flip side, I obviously don't grant some metaphysical soul or something that begins at conception. I can't grant sanctity of life reasoning that's based on Imago Dei, for similar reasons. I consider both of those arguments ineffective, as their persuasive power is very limited. The people most likely to argue for abortion are the ones least likely to hold to Imago Dei or its like. I also reject the "right to life" concept because I reject the idea that 'rights' are somehow real things that are inviolate. In general, I find the "it's my right" arguments misguided at best, and it's particularly damning that they're the primary support for abortion.

    However, a general sanctity of life is something I can get behind. I think it self-evident that all living things seek to preserve their life, and the few exceptions to that are rightly considered mentally ill. I think very few people truly hold that life is inviolate. The same ones arguing for pro-life are often arguing for the death penalty. Cultures throughout time have recognized certain people as heroes for giving up their lives to save others or to effect a change. Sometimes, it's necessary and/or important that people die. In spite of that, the very impact of such sacrifice is lost if it becomes a commonplace occurrence. It's a soldier's duty to die for his country, but it's the officer's duty to spend lives frugally. To make abortion a common and accepted occurrence clearly reduces the value of life in our society's eyes. That sort of precedent is downright dangerous. In that sense, yes, I am very much anti-abortion.

    The complications arise when we start discussing how to prevent abortion. Most people think the right way is through legislation. Some seem to think that's the only way. I know it's not the only way, but I'm not sure how much it's the right way, either. The line here is fuzzy for me. I'm completely against having at-will abortions for any and all, and I think there are strong reasons that the government should prevent such actions. At the same time, I think our system is generally unable to make laws in the interest of its citizens. Where majority rules, long-term self-interest is not necessarily present or expected.

    There is an ongoing issue with precedent, though. In the same way that acceptance of at-will abortion is a dangerous precedent, so too is a government system that dictates the answer to extremely difficult and emotional decisions. For that reason, I'm not in favor of outlawing abortion in cases of rape or when the life of the mother is at risk. This does not mean I'm in favor of abortion in these cases. It simply means I think it would be an abuse of power for the government to be involved in such decisions. If nothing else, it simply doesn't have the capacity to do so. Since legislation is not the solution, we must seek other means. These other means are essentially winning the hearts and minds. I believe we need to equip all people, including teenagers, with the information and education they need to make informed decisions. Eliminate in a sound and rational manner the misconceptions regarding pregnancy, and especially that resulting from rape or incest. Eliminate the negative attitudes toward raising children. Support reasonable means of prevention. If we can do these things, I think we will have won in the long run, and we will have done so much more effectively than an attempted ban.
    I'm not here anymore.

  • #2
    I think the hearts and minds thing is already somewhat working. From the polls I have seen support for abortion, especially with young adults, is waning.
    Last edited by seer; 06-12-2014, 03:34 PM.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • #3
      Carr, as you will expect I agree with you on all the pro abortion arguments you mention. It may surprise you to know that I also disagree with the whole idea that “some metaphysical soul” argument. I do not believe that a soul is imparted at some point in time. I would never use the “Imago Dei” argument myself though I do believe, as I am sure you expect, that man is made in the image of God (I am not sure what that really means though). As you would also expect I do see human rights as real things given by God. I would not be considered by many as a believer in sanctity of life in general as I do believe in capital punishment. I do not call myself “pro-life” for just the reason you mentioned. I am anti abortion period.

      While I do agree with much of the Pro Life argument my only argument against abortion is a legal one. Abortion is only free from the designation of murder because the fetus is not “legally” a human being. The legal prohibition against murder should apply to abortion. I know there may well be circumstances that would allow for abortion, not as many as are tossed around by the pro abortion forces however.

      So how to stop abortion? We will never stop it. No more than we can stop any other form of murder. We do not need any new legislative action to move against abortion unless it be a legal recognition of a fetus as a human being. We already have laws against murder. It is not complicated at all in my opinion.

      At the same time, I think our system is generally unable to make laws in the interest of its citizens. Where majority rules, long-term self-interest is not necessarily present.
      I heartily agree with this in society today. It may never have been true that our government system was reliably able to make good laws in the best interest of it's citizens. This was recognized to some degree by the nations founders when we were formed as a Republic rather than a Democracy. I would never want to live in a real democracy. This however moves well away from the topic at hand.
      Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

      Comment


      • #4
        I am disappointed in the blatant contradiction in Public Law 108-212 that basically stipulates that the child in-utero is afforded separate legal protections from the mother, unless it it the mother (or her medically elected proxy) that is doing the harming of the child. On one hand, it validates the separate existence of the child in-utero, but makes an exception for abortion, which denies it.
        That's what
        - She

        Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
        - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

        I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
        Stephen R. Donaldson

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        • #5
          Amen, Bill.
          Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
            However, a general sanctity of life is something I can get behind.
            Which kinds of life, since we're rejecting disputable distinctions here?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by seasanctuary View Post
              Which kinds of life, since we're rejecting disputable distinctions here?
              I don't distinguish by quality or species type. However, I don't hold it as inviolate, either. When and how it can be violated is not something I've elaborated on, but perhaps I should.


              I'm open to discussing disputable distinctions. Just because I'm not convinced doesn't mean I can't be.
              I'm not here anymore.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by seasanctuary View Post
                Which kinds of life, since we're rejecting disputable distinctions here?


                How about you explain yourself and what you are fishing for here first?
                That's what
                - She

                Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                Stephen R. Donaldson

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post


                  How about you explain yourself and what you are fishing for here first?
                  I like that gif!
                  I'm not here anymore.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                    Carr, as you will expect I agree with you on all the pro abortion arguments you mention. It may surprise you to know that I also disagree with the whole idea that “some metaphysical soul” argument. I do not believe that a soul is imparted at some point in time. I would never use the “Imago Dei” argument myself though I do believe, as I am sure you expect, that man is made in the image of God (I am not sure what that really means though). As you would also expect I do see human rights as real things given by God. I would not be considered by many as a believer in sanctity of life in general as I do believe in capital punishment. I do not call myself “pro-life” for just the reason you mentioned. I am anti abortion period.

                    While I do agree with much of the Pro Life argument my only argument against abortion is a legal one. Abortion is only free from the designation of murder because the fetus is not “legally” a human being. The legal prohibition against murder should apply to abortion. I know there may well be circumstances that would allow for abortion, not as many as are tossed around by the pro abortion forces however.

                    So how to stop abortion? We will never stop it. No more than we can stop any other form of murder. We do not need any new legislative action to move against abortion unless it be a legal recognition of a fetus as a human being. We already have laws against murder. It is not complicated at all in my opinion.
                    You're right, I am somewhat surprised that you don't think the soul is imparted at some point in time. Where/how does it come into play? I'm pleasantly surprised by your take on Imago Dei. For what it's worth, I don't think there's a way to reject it because there doesn't seem to be any way to know what it's supposed to describe. My rejection of it is mostly due to my lack of belief in God. I think you make a good point about legislative action. It's interesting to note that Roe v. Wade focused on right to privacy instead of the status of the fetus.


                    Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                    I heartily agree with this in society today. It may never have been true that our government system was reliably able to make good laws in the best interest of it's citizens. This was recognized to some degree by the nations founders when we were formed as a Republic rather than a Democracy. I would never want to live in a real democracy. This however moves well away from the topic at hand.
                    I'm not here anymore.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I have never used a "soul" argument in my pro-life debates. I just use "the fetus is a human being" - which is different from some legal definition of "person" - it is a biological definition. It is a distinct human being from the moment of conception. It is alive, it grows, has unique DNA, and will grow into an adult human being one day, barring disease, accident or murder. We all started out like this.


                      "I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born." -- Ronald Reagan.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        I have never used a "soul" argument in my pro-life debates. I just use "the fetus is a human being" - which is different from some legal definition of "person" - it is a biological definition. It is a distinct human being from the moment of conception. It is alive, it grows, has unique DNA, and will grow into an adult human being one day, barring disease, accident or murder. We all started out like this.
                        I agree heartily with this. However to get it into law it will require a legal definition of human that includes the unborn.
                        Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
                          . . .I am somewhat surprised that you don't think the soul is imparted at some point in time. Where/how does it come into play?
                          The soul, IMHO is simply an aspect of the human being. It is always there from conception. I do not see this as some mysterious thing that gets inserted into a person giving them "personhood" at some point in time.
                          Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I've always been pro-life, due to little things like a history of biology classes giving me a greater personal, scientific, and emotional level of experiences and contacts with people who may be called upon to perform abortions.

                            But since it's also a policy of mine to support whatever feminists and liberals most loudly decry(they keep talking about smashing patriarchy, which actually turns out to be pretty swell from a historical perspective,) I am also anti-choice, because pregnant women rarely make good ones alone.

                            (Teal and everyone else with doctoring and nursing experience, please stop nodding your heads now.)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                              I agree heartily with this. However to get it into law it will require a legal definition of human that includes the unborn.
                              It actually already exists. That's why the Democrats fought so hard to defeat Laci and Conner's Law.
                              That's what
                              - She

                              Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                              - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                              I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                              Stephen R. Donaldson

                              Comment

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