More Liberal Fascism?

[fm93]

As an aside, I couldn't resist commenting on this delicious bit of irony regarding the sorority incident. I don't know if this applies to the people in this thread, but I've heard so many Christian conservatives complain about the modern celebration of Christmas. They point out that it's ultimately a religious celebration of Jesus' birth, and as such, it has deep significance to a particular cultural community--Christians. However, an outside community (non-Christians) to whom the holiday's significance doesn't personally apply has bastardized Christmas by secularizing and commercializing it. The concern seems to be that outsiders are ignoring the significance of the event and are instead using it as an excuse for gluttony and personal pleasure.

The more I think about it, the more it seems that this phenomenon is essentially the same thing as the Cinco de Mayo issue. The holiday ultimately is a celebration of something that has deep significance to a particular cultural community. This girl, who happens to be a member of that community, is angered by how an outside community (to whom the holiday's significance doesn't personally apply) has bastardized the event by commercializing it, ignoring its significance, and using it as an excuse for gluttony and personal pleasure. Non-Christians certainly aren't celebrating Christ during Christmas, just as non-Mexicans aren't celebrating a Mexican military victory during Cinco de Mayo. So if you happen to object to how Christmas is commonly celebrated, you really ought to understand where this girl is coming from when she objects.

[Pinoy]

So can I ask the government to ban those who celebrate Christmas that do not follow or do not concern themselves of the real meaning of Christmas?

[fm93]

So can I ask the government to ban those who celebrate Christmas that do not follow or do not concern themselves of the real meaning of Christmas?

Oh, I'm not arguing that Dartmouth definitely took the best course of action. I was just annoyed by how dismissive that conservative website seemed to be, especially when many conservatives complain so bitterly about the "War on Christmas" for essentially the same reasons.

[Darth Executor]

No, of course not.

Ok. The reason why I ask is because the reason why Jews find the swastika offensive is because it's a symbol of an organization that was trying to kill them. So the analogy doesn't make sense unless the thing the word "redskin" represents (Native Americans) is something you and other Native Americans loathe. Saying it's a slur doesn't really change anything because the reason why people considered redskin a slur is because they didn't like natives. So by adopting the belief that "redskin" is a slur you are essentially telegraphing agreement with the people who think being a "redskin" is a bad thing. I suspect the reason why some natives find the word offensive is because they don't know anything about its origins and haven't really thought through why they're offended. It's pretty much a cultural imperative these days that everybody claim they're a victim, without any thought put into how they're being victimized. I don't see why society should encourage being offended on command for no discernible rational reason.

[lilpixieofterror]

As an aside, I couldn't resist commenting on this delicious bit of irony regarding the sorority incident. I don't know if this applies to the people in this thread, but I've heard so many Christian conservatives complain about the modern celebration of Christmas. They point out that it's ultimately a religious celebration of Jesus' birth, and as such, it has deep significance to a particular cultural community--Christians. However, an outside community (non-Christians) to whom the holiday's significance doesn't personally apply has bastardized Christmas by secularizing and commercializing it. The concern seems to be that outsiders are ignoring the significance of the event and are instead using it as an excuse for gluttony and personal pleasure.

The more I think about it, the more it seems that this phenomenon is essentially the same thing as the Cinco de Mayo issue. The holiday ultimately is a celebration of something that has deep significance to a particular cultural community. This girl, who happens to be a member of that community, is angered by how an outside community (to whom the holiday's significance doesn't personally apply) has bastardized the event by commercializing it, ignoring its significance, and using it as an excuse for gluttony and personal pleasure. Non-Christians certainly aren't celebrating Christ during Christmas, just as non-Mexicans aren't celebrating a Mexican military victory during Cinco de Mayo. So if you happen to object to how Christmas is commonly celebrated, you really ought to understand where this girl is coming from when she objects.

Your majesty, if I may inject here, there's a word of difference between advocating a holiday goes back to religious roots and trying to use force to advocating your beliefs should be accepted by the population. You do understand this, don't you oh kingly one?

BTW I found you a good avatar:



I think it fits you quite well.

[Jedidiah]

You do understand this, don't you oh kingly one?

Does not sound like it from the post.

[fm93]

Does not sound like it from the post.

What real difference is there in this case? The people who complain about a "War on Christmas" seem to want their group's holiday to go back to its original roots. The girl at Dartmouth seems to want her group's holiday to go back to its original roots. And all she did was write a letter to a few university offices. I would hardly classify that approach as "using force to advocate that an entire population accept her beliefs." If anything, those particular Christian conservatives are the ones who do that. Many of them become angry over something as petty as being told "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" and go out of their way to correct the poor offender who used a secular greeting. Besides, doesn't declaring that there's a "war" on Christmas imply that people ought to fight back forcefully?

[lilpixieofterror]

What real difference is there in this case? The people who complain about a "War on Christmas" seem to want their group's holiday to go back to its original roots. The girl at Dartmouth seems to want her group's holiday to go back to its original roots.

So 1 person out of 99 is proof of something going on and the other 99 people (who are part of her group, I might add) should shut up and leave their opinion to themselves. How lovely. BTW I'm from Southern California and experienced plenty of celebrations, such as this where the Latino community was taking part. One of my friends was even a member of a band one year that was going on. I guess they should shut up too because one person disagreed with them?

And all she did was write a letter to a few university offices. I would hardly classify that approach as "using force to advocate that an entire population accept her beliefs."

And they canceled an event based upon the fact one person out of 99 gets offended. Doesn't that sound a little ridiculous to you?

If anything, those particular Christian conservatives are the ones who do that. Many of them become angry over something as petty as being told "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" and go out of their way to correct the poor offender who used a secular greeting. Besides, doesn't declaring that there's a "war" on Christmas imply that people ought to fight back forcefully?

Your royal highness, I've seen many atheist who get offended over being told 'merry Christmas', but that's ok because they are not Christians. Correct?

[Jedidiah]

If I tried to get all secular celebration of Christmas stopped there would be a similarity. As it stands there is none.

[Sparko]

What real difference is there in this case? The people who complain about a "War on Christmas" seem to want their group's holiday to go back to its original roots. The girl at Dartmouth seems to want her group's holiday to go back to its original roots. And all she did was write a letter to a few university offices. I would hardly classify that approach as "using force to advocate that an entire population accept her beliefs." If anything, those particular Christian conservatives are the ones who do that. Many of them become angry over something as petty as being told "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" and go out of their way to correct the poor offender who used a secular greeting. Besides, doesn't declaring that there's a "war" on Christmas imply that people ought to fight back forcefully?

What do you even know about Cinco de Mayo and what it means and how it is celebrated in Mexico?

Did you know that is it basically just a holiday in parts of Mexico commemorating the defeat of the French by the Mexicans? It is not a religious or cultural holiday and it is actually celebrated more in the USA than in Mexico.


According to wiki -

A 2007 UCLA Newsroom article notes that "The holiday, which has been celebrated in California continuously since 1863, is virtually ignored in Mexico."[32] TIME magazine reports that "Cinco de Mayo started to come into vogue in 1940s America during the rise of the Chicano movement."[23] The holiday crossed over from California into the rest of the United States in the 1950s and 1960s but didn't gain popularity until the 1980s when marketers, especially beer companies, capitalized on the celebratory nature of the day and began to promote it.[33][34] It grew in popularity and evolved into a celebration of Mexican culture and heritage, first in areas with large Mexican-American populations, like Los Angeles, Chicago, and Houston.[35]

Although Mexican citizens feel very proud of the meaning of Cinco de Mayo, it is not a national holiday in Mexico but it is an official holiday in the State of Puebla, where the Battle took place.[49][50] However, all public schools are closed nation-wide in Mexico on May 5.[51][52] It is also a full holiday (no work) in the neighboring state of Veracruz
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinco_de_Mayo.
---


So this woman's indignation and outrage is just a bunch of liberal crap.

[Sparko]

If I tried to get all secular celebration of Christmas stopped there would be a similarity. As it stands there is none.

Yeah! Let's start a movement that says only Christians can celebrate Christmas! If we see any atheist families giving presents to their children on Christmas, we get to take them away and give them to the church!!!
And it doesn't even take all Christians to change this! If only ONE Christian complains, then the liberals should give in and let us have our way!

Square_peg is acting like a complete idiot with his analogies.

[fm93]

If I tried to get all secular celebration of Christmas stopped there would be a similarity. As it stands there is none.

That implies that the girl wants to stop all non-Mexican celebration of Cinco de Mayo. I don't see that anywhere. She's annoyed at what it's become, but nothing indicates that she'd also have a problem with, say, educating non-Mexicans to be more aware and respectful regarding the holiday. And from what I've seen, some of those Christian conservatives do seem to want essentially all secular celebration of Christmas to be stopped.

But either way, this is getting off track. I was mainly pointing out that the principle behind the two cases is essentially the same, not the application. I never claimed that Dartmouth took the best course of action. You see, while I do have my own opinions on these issues, I understand that other people may have well-meaning and perhaps even sensible reasons for holding to the opposite positions. That doesn't bother me. What does bother me are the flippant, unsympathetic responses of some people on the other side.

[rogue06]

Source: Army’s Apache under assault: PC police call helicopter’s name racist

Veterans aren’t happy with a recent op-ed by the Washington Post, which charged that the Apache, Comanche, Chinook, Lakota, Cheyenne and Kiowa military vehicles were a “greater symbolic injustice” than the NFL’s Washington Redskins’ name.

“Even if the NFL and Redskins brass come to their senses and rename the team, a greater symbolic injustice would continue to afflict Indians — an injustice perpetuated not by a football club but by our federal government,” Simon Waxman of the Boston Review wrote for the Post on Thursday.

He added that the helicopter names were “propaganda” that needed to end, because Native American life expectancy statistics indicate the “violence is ongoing, even if the guns are silent.”

Readers at the popular military news gathering website Doctrine Man reacted Friday.
“I suspect that the author is less unhappy that our choppers have Indian names, and more unhappy that there is a U.S. military,” wrote Alex Kuhns.

Kevin Schooler wrote: “What floors me is that for the most part, it isn't American Indians who are offended. It is guilt-ridden white liberals being offended on their behalf. How’s that for paternalism?”

Even the website’s moderator weighed in, saying that the names the military chooses for weapons platforms “are anything but derogatory, they convey strength, honor, and courage. @SimonWaxman is grossly uninformed.”



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