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Federal officials stockpiled munitions, sought ‘heat ray’ device before clearing Lafa

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  • #16
    Originally posted by LiconaFan97 View Post
    Composition / division fallacy.
    I could say the same of your comment, as if the afternoon June 1 protest was the only one the Major was referencing needing these items for
    That's what
    - She

    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
    - Stephen R. Donaldson

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    • #17
      Originally posted by LiconaFan97 View Post
      The protests in questions were on June 1, not May 31.
      So they only wanted this thing that one single day for that one single section of the protest? They weren't, say, going "oh, after that riot with a fire set in a historic church last night, maybe we should try to get more equipment to deal with further unrest as these continue"?

      Rather you are positing the only thing in their minds was that one singe day of June 1st and could not recall the previous night nor extrapolate logically what could happen that next night or in coming days?

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
        I could say the same of your comment, as if the afternoon June 1 protest was the only one the Major was referencing needing these items for
        Maybe, maybe not. We do know that the protestors were shortly thereafter illegally cleared using clearly over-harsh tactics. Why weren't these inquiries made immediately the first time the protestors crossed the lines on prior days? Why weren't they made immediately when Trump was taken down to the bunker?

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post
          So they only wanted this thing that one single day for that one single section of the protest? They weren't, say, going "oh, after that riot with a fire set in a historic church last night, maybe we should try to get more equipment to deal with further unrest as these continue"?

          Rather you are positing the only thing in their minds was that one singe day of June 1st and could not recall the previous night nor extrapolate logically what could happen that next night or in coming days?
          When I saw the prior protests I immediately wondered what means were on hand in case the protestors charged en masse. Didn't you?

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          • #20
            Originally posted by LiconaFan97 View Post
            When I saw the prior protests I immediately wondered what means were on hand in case the protestors charged en masse. Didn't you?
            How do you think the police should handle a riot when asking them to disperse doesn't work? And they are throwing things at the police? I am not talking about this case in particular or peaceful protestors, I am asking in general. If there was a riot and the crowd was getting violent and attacking the police, how should the police respond? What tools can they use?

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              How do you think the police should handle a riot when asking them to disperse doesn't work? And they are throwing things at the police? I am not talking about this case in particular or peaceful protestors, I am asking in general. If there was a riot and the crowd was getting violent and attacking the police, how should the police respond? What tools can they use?
              I'm not trying to dodge your question but I don't know what best practices are. If use of these devices would be in line with those then I wouldn't like it but I guess I wouldn't be able to object as strongly. Obviously in the case of a legitimate riot harsh measures are necessary to maintain order.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by LiconaFan97 View Post
                I'm not trying to dodge your question but I don't know what best practices are. If use of these devices would be in line with those then I wouldn't like it but I guess I wouldn't be able to object as strongly. Obviously in the case of a legitimate riot harsh measures are necessary to maintain order.
                And yet you were just telling is how sickening it all is. And they didn't even do any of it.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  And yet you were just telling is how sickening it all is. And they didn't even do any of it.
                  It's sickening because the protest on that day was not a riot and because I'm not convinced that those devices are justified for use on Americans except possibly under very extreme circumstances. If all of this was above board we likely wouldn't have a named, first party, high ranking military whistleblower who is likewise troubled.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by LiconaFan97 View Post
                    It's sickening because the protest on that day was not a riot and because I'm not convinced that those devices are justified for use on Americans except possibly under very extreme circumstances. If all of this was above board we likely wouldn't have a named, first party, high ranking military whistleblower who is likewise troubled.
                    I could agree the big guns should only be used against a riot. Then again, my threshold of a riot might be low. For instance one firework bigger than a firecracker, one rock or brick thrown....riot. Unload on them. You saw the poor guy who caught fire from their fireworks. I'm glad it was him and not a cop.

                    I consider a brick flying at the head of a cop an extreme circumstance.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Maranatha View Post
                      I could agree the big guns should only be used against a riot. Then again, my threshold of a riot might be low. For instance one firework bigger than a firecracker, one rock or brick thrown....riot. Unload on them. You saw the poor guy who caught fire from their fireworks. I'm glad it was him and not a cop.

                      I consider a brick flying at the head of a cop an extreme circumstance.
                      Quite the authoritarian streak you've got. People shouldn't throw things at cops, even things less dangerous than a brick. But jumping from that to riot is... something.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by LiconaFan97 View Post
                        Federal officials stockpiled munitions, sought ‘heat ray’ device before clearing Lafa

                        Just sickening. What have we become?
                        No longer a free nation according to people Pew surveyed in allied western countries:



                        That graph only goes to 2018. If those fairly linear trends have continued in the last couple of years (and given stories like the one mentioned in this thread, along with numerous stories of US police brutality in the international news lately, they probably have), you might be now looking at a situation where only about 10-15% of people in allied Western nations view the US as country that respects the freedoms of its people.

                        I know increasingly the US right-wing has some negative views about its western allies (I got told that US allies ought to suffer in another thread, which raises questions as to whether US conservatives understand what an 'ally' is, or whether they actually view themselves as enemies of other free western nations). But if the US wants to see itself as the "leader of the free world", or view its President as being in that position, does that make any sense when the rest of the "free world" that you are supposedly leading has the view that you aren't part of the "free world" yourselves?

                        The idea of police using heat rays or even tear gas on protesters, is orders of magnitude beyond what people would tolerate from police in my country. If there was an unruly protest here a couple of police would be expected to turn up and chat politely to the leaders about getting the protest a bit more under control, and perhaps encourage a meeting with a politician to share their grievances, and it would be a national scandal if those police were carrying a gun on them at the time they did this, and would make for some controversial front page headlines if they did this while carrying a taser on them. The last time there were large scale riots here, 39 years ago, police use of batons on protesters (resulting in 0 deaths and 0 serious injuries) was subsequently deemed by public sentiment to be too much use of police force, and a repeat of that wouldn't be tolerated. The idea of police using violence of any kind on protesters would go down like a lead balloon here would be the national scandal of the year, possibly the decade, and cause an immediate government inquiry at the highest levels as to how it had been allowed to happen. So when people here look at what's happening in America...
                        "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                        "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                        "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                          No longer a free nation according to people Pew surveyed in allied western countries:



                          That graph only goes to 2018. If those fairly linear trends have continued in the last couple of years (and given stories like the one mentioned in this thread, along with numerous stories of US police brutality in the international news lately, they probably have), you might be now looking at a situation where only about 10-15% of people in allied Western nations view the US as country that respects the freedoms of its people.

                          I know increasingly the US right-wing has some negative views about its western allies (I got told that US allies ought to suffer in another thread, which raises questions as to whether US conservatives understand what an 'ally' is, or whether they actually view themselves as enemies of other free western nations). But if the US wants to see itself as the "leader of the free world", or view its President as being in that position, does that make any sense when the rest of the "free world" that you are supposedly leading has the view that you aren't part of the "free world" yourselves?

                          The idea of police using heat rays or even tear gas on protesters, is orders of magnitude beyond what people would tolerate from police in my country. If there was an unruly protest here a couple of police would be expected to turn up and chat politely to the leaders about getting the protest a bit more under control, and perhaps encourage a meeting with a politician to share their grievances, and it would be a national scandal if those police were carrying a gun on them at the time they did this, and would make for some controversial front page headlines if they did this while carrying a taser on them. The last time there were large scale riots here, 39 years ago, police use of batons on protesters (resulting in 0 deaths and 0 serious injuries) was subsequently deemed by public sentiment to be too much use of police force, and a repeat of that wouldn't be tolerated. The idea of police using violence of any kind on protesters would go down like a lead balloon here would be the national scandal of the year, possibly the decade, and cause an immediate government inquiry at the highest levels as to how it had been allowed to happen. So when people here look at what's happening in America...
                          Bahahahahahah, France, who bans an entire type of garment because they're worn by Muslims and has had literally almost two years of Yellow Vest riots over their violations of French people's rights; Germany who bans homeschooling and has no free speech; and Spain, which has flagrantly ignored the Catalan secession votes.

                          That's rich, that they think they have any ground to stand on to try to judge the US.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by LiconaFan97 View Post
                            When I saw the prior protests I immediately wondered what means were on hand in case the protestors charged en masse. Didn't you?
                            Then I fail to understand why you're throwing a fit.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post
                              Then I fail to understand why you're throwing a fit.
                              Ok, why do you think these inquiries were not done immediately at the time, if not long before, Trump was taken to the bunker? Aren't there plans upon plans upon plans already drawn up for keeping the president and the White House grounds safe?

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by LiconaFan97 View Post
                                Quite the authoritarian streak you've got. People shouldn't throw things at cops, even things less dangerous than a brick. But jumping from that to riot is... something.
                                It's like playing catch to you, idn't it. Quite the uncaring about violence against the innocent and the dead you've got.

                                Look, violent people in this society need taken out of society. I really get upset with violent people who hurt others. They can go peacefully or go violently. Seems they like hurting people so they will probably go violently. I ain't scared of that either.

                                Then, the rest of us can allow the cops to be bored to tears with all the peaceful behavior.

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