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  • #31
    Originally posted by Maranatha View Post
    It's like playing catch to you, idn't it. Quite the uncaring about violence against the innocent and the dead you've got.

    Look, violent people in this society need taken out of society. I really get upset with violent people who hurt others. They can go peacefully or go violently. Seems they like hurting people so they will probably go violently. I ain't scared of that either.

    Then, the rest of us can allow the cops to be bored to tears with all the peaceful behavior.
    I appreciate that sentiment and I wish cops were bored every day too. But a riot is not a single act of violent behavior among a crowd. You can't just redefine words to your liking in order to justify a harsh response from police and the military. Even if everything that has been said about Trump is true I wouldn't accuse him of treason because that is a word with a specific, narrow definition in the United States.

    I won't defend any of the violent "protestors." I won't even give much defense to those staying peaceably staying out after curfew even though I understand their emotion. I'm definitely on the side of law and order.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post
      France, who bans an entire type of garment because they're worn by Muslims
      For the sarcastically impaired the following is said in jest

      Whereas in America the Muslims go to the torture chambers which is clearly much better.


      One of the main arguments put forth in France for banning Burqas was that it increased freedom. The concern was that Muslim women were being pressured, against their will, into covering up by religious extremists. These women were wanting a ban on Burqas so that they would have the freedom to dress as they pleased within their Muslim areas of town without being harassed.

      and has had literally almost two years of Yellow Vest riots over their violations of French people's rights
      ???
      The Yellow Vest protests were about many things, but a violation of rights doesn't seem to be one of them, so I'm not sure what you're thinking of here.

      Wiki lists the causes of the Yellow Vest protests as:
      Rise in crude oil prices in 2018[30]
      Fuel tax[31]
      Traffic enforcement cameras[32]
      Austerity measures[33]
      2017 wealth tax repeal[34]
      Globalization[35]
      Class conflict[36]
      Neoliberalism[37]


      Germany who bans homeschooling
      Yawn. Probably fair enough IMO, I think we should probably do the same in my country. This reflects a concern for the rights of the child, a desire to ensure that all children receive a good education, have sufficient social companionship of kids their own age, and that there be a reasonable level of observation of children by 3rd parties outside the family who can raise alarms in the case of obvious domestic abuse. I am not sufficiently personally convinced that current homeschooling options in my country satisfy these requirements, though I would admit my knowledge on the topic is limited.

      I do notice a cultural difference in this regard when I interact with US people - you guys have a tendency to emphasise the rights of the parents to raise their kids how they like, which has a tendency to come across as a very immoral lack of concern for the well-being of the kids. The rest of the Western world has a tendency to emphasise much more heavily the importance of the well-being of children and the duties of the parents to ensure that, as opposed to the rights of the parents. Almost nobody in my country would agree to the statement "parents have a right to raise their children however they like" for example, people would instead agree with a statements like "parents have a legal responsibility to raise their children well", and "the government has a moral duty to intervene if children are being abused or their basic rights are not being met". We do not think of children as something the parents own, or something they can experiment on or do as they please to, we view children as humans with rights like anyone else, and who are particularly vulnerable and thus in need of extra protections. Perhaps related to this is that the US is the only country not to have ratified the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child treaty. US culture on this topic often strikes me as deeply immoral.

      and has no free speech
      Germany has some obvious reason to want to limit free speech about the Nazis. But I'll grant you that's a very mild human rights infringement.

      and Spain, which has flagrantly ignored the Catalan secession votes.
      I agree Spain's intolerance of independence attempts is bad. Maybe you think they should have had a lengthy civil war over it and killed each other in large numbers like the US did?

      That's rich, that they think they have any ground to stand on to try to judge the US.
      As a 3rd party observer, living in what the US libertarian Cato Institute rates as the #1 freest country in the world, I would personally regard France, Germany and Spain as respecting their people's personal freedoms far more than the US does. From the point of view of human rights, I would far rather live in those countries than in the US, and if I were to be accused of a crime by the authorities, I would 1000x prefer to be in one of those countries than the US.
      Last edited by Starlight; 09-17-2020, 10:48 PM.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Starlight View Post
        For the sarcastically impaired the following is said in jest

        Whereas in America the Muslims go to the torture chambers which is clearly much better.


        One of the main arguments put forth in France for banning Burqas was that it increased freedom. The concern was that Muslim women were being pressured, against their will, into covering up by religious extremists. These women were wanting a ban on Burqas so that they would have the freedom to dress as they pleased within their Muslim areas of town without being harassed.
        Except by banning it, they prevent the women who want to wear them, from wearing them. So that 'logic' makes no sense whatsoever.
        ???
        The Yellow Vest protests were about many things, but a violation of rights doesn't seem to be one of them, so I'm not sure what you're thinking of here.

        Wiki lists the causes of the Yellow Vest protests as:
        Rise in crude oil prices in 2018[30]
        Fuel tax[31]
        Traffic enforcement cameras[32]
        Austerity measures[33]
        2017 wealth tax repeal[34]
        Globalization[35]
        Class conflict[36]
        Neoliberalism[37]
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citize...endum_(France)

        Yawn. Probably fair enough IMO, I think we should probably do the same in my country. This reflects a concern for the rights of the child, a desire to ensure that all children receive a good education, have sufficient social companionship of kids their own age, and that there be a reasonable level of observation of children by 3rd parties outside the family who can raise alarms in the case of obvious domestic abuse. I am not sufficiently personally convinced that current homeschooling options in my country satisfy these requirements, though I would admit my knowledge on the topic is limited.
        Homeschooling here in the US has shown much more positive results than public schooling.

        I do notice a cultural difference in this regard when I interact with US people - you guys have a tendency to emphasise the rights of the parents to raise their kids how they like,
        Almost as if..... they have more rights..... than parents in other countries.

        which has a tendency to come across as a very immoral lack of concern for the well-being of the kids.
        What utter rubbish.

        The rest of the Western world has a tendency to emphasise much more heavily the importance of the well-being of children and the duties of the parents to ensure that, as opposed to the rights of the parents. Almost nobody in my country would agree to the statement "parents have a right to raise their children however they like" for example, people would instead agree with a statements like "parents have a legal responsibility to raise their children well", and "the government has a moral duty to intervene if children are being abused or their basic rights are not being met". We do not think of children as something the parents own, or something they can experiment on or do as they please to, we view children as humans with rights like anyone else, and who are particularly vulnerable and thus in need of extra protections. Perhaps related to this is that the US is the only country not to have ratified the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child treaty. US culture on this topic often strikes me as deeply immoral.
        More rubbish to distract from lack of rights in Germany, etc.
        Germany has some obvious reason to want to limit free speech about the Nazis. But I'll grant you that's a very mild human rights infringement.
        More than mild.
        I agree Spain's intolerance of independence attempts is bad. Maybe you think they should have had a lengthy civil war over it and killed each other in large numbers like the US did?
        Or they should actually respect it.

        As a 3rd party observer, living in what the US libertarian Cato Institute rates as the #1 freest country in the world, I would personally regard France, Germany and Spain as respecting their people's personal freedoms far more than the US does.
        Utter rubbish.

        From the point of view of human rights, I would far rather live in those countries than in the US, and if I were to be accused of a crime by the authorities, I would 1000x prefer to be in one of those countries than the US.
        I have no doubt you would. Liberals can't stand real freedom.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post
          Except by banning it, they prevent the women who want to wear them, from wearing them.
          That was one of the counter-arguments yes.

          I still don't get what point you're trying to make here. That some of the yellow vest protesters wanted a law around citizens initiated referendums? So what? It doesn't make France an unfree country that it happens to not have such a law. My own country introduced such a law during my lifetime and its effects have been somewhere between zero and pointless.

          Homeschooling here in the US has shown much more positive results than public schooling.
          I am skeptical. Homeschooling is a self-selected group, it would be all but impossible to compare the two in an unbiased way.

          Almost as if..... they have more rights..... than parents in other countries.
          Way to rationalize serious immorality. The way American culture tolerates mistreatment of kids by parents on the grounds that parents have rights and kids don't is deeply, deeply, disturbing. I have seen in this forum videos of American families kicking their kid out of home onto the street on the grounds the kid was gay, and the response from conservatives here was along the lines of how dare I judge the parents and that they have a right to parent as they see fit. If the same thing happened in my country the neighbours would be calling the cops and the parents would be charged with a crime for failing to do their duty as a caregiver.

          Liberals can't stand real freedom.

          What an utter moron. Liberals have been about freedom from the beginning. Conservatives have always been about obedience to the hierarchy.
          Last edited by Starlight; 09-18-2020, 01:18 AM.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Starlight View Post
            That was one of the counter-arguments yes.

            I still don't get what point you're trying to make here. That some of the yellow vest protesters wanted a law around citizens initiated referendums? So what? It doesn't make France an unfree country that it happens to not have such a law. My own country introduced such a law during my lifetime and its effects have been somewhere between zero and pointless.

            I am skeptical. Homeschooling is a self-selected group, it would be all but impossible to compare the two in an unbiased way.

            Way to rationalize serious immorality. The way American culture tolerates mistreatment of kids by parents on the grounds that parents have rights and kids don't is deeply, deeply, disturbing. I have seen in this forum videos of American families kicking their kid out of home onto the street on the grounds the kid was gay, and the response from conservatives here was along the lines of how dare I judge the parents and that they have a right to parent as they see fit. If the same thing happened in my country the neighbours would be calling the cops and the parents would be charged with a crime for failing to do their duty as a caregiver.


            What an utter moron. Liberals have been about freedom from the beginning. Conservatives have always been about obedience to the hierarchy.
            That's a negative. Liberals started out for freedom and constitution and have devolved into authoritarianism, which is really why modern "liberals" shouldn't even be called by that word.
            "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by LiconaFan97 View Post
              I appreciate that sentiment and I wish cops were bored every day too. But a riot is not a single act of violent behavior among a crowd. You can't just redefine words to your liking in order to justify a harsh response from police and the military. Even if everything that has been said about Trump is true I wouldn't accuse him of treason because that is a word with a specific, narrow definition in the United States.

              I won't defend any of the violent "protestors." I won't even give much defense to those staying peaceably staying out after curfew even though I understand their emotion. I'm definitely on the side of law and order.
              You can declare your opinion as forcefully as you want, it is as meaningless as me declaring differently. The policies in place with police departments seem sufficient, and my threshold is stricter, and leftists definition of riot is "what time and where?"

              The justification for a harsh response is the violent behavior, kinda how that works. No self justification from me necessary. People die rather easily, so as some see a harmless firework for instance, someone else can see that as you want to make me deaf and light me on fire.

              The one thing I do note is the defense of the rioters from the left. Whether playing violence down as not riot worthy, trying to claim their anger is somehow justified so hurting people is ok if you understand their feelings, bailing them out to be violent again, or even politicians who approve of chaos against citizens of their own city.

              Dingleberry empathy is what I would call that. If you only understand them we could all live in harmony.

              I don't care what imaginings people have about Trump. Life is lived by working, shopping and relaxing. Trump is just not involved in my life, as it should be. And I don't want him to be, nor do I want Joe and the marxists in his train. I see Biden as endangering every aspect of that. I would rather have a brash business guy than a do-gooder forcing upon me what is best for me. Quite simple.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                How do you think the police should handle a riot when asking them to disperse doesn't work? And they are throwing things at the police? I am not talking about this case in particular or peaceful protestors, I am asking in general. If there was a riot and the crowd was getting violent and attacking the police, how should the police respond? What tools can they use?
                The answer ought to be obvious. They should be equipped with coloring books and stuffed animals to hand out along with plenty of cool drinks to distribute (inhaling all that smoke from the peacefully burning buildings tends to parch the throat).

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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