Why do some Americans believe weird things?

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

So it is all America's fault or are Europeans incapable of thinking for themselves?

Oh no. We have plenty of gullible idiots in Europe.

[oxmixmudd]

I recommend you read up on first century Judaism's attitudes to what constituted a "virgin". The actual Hebrew word that is used in Isaiah is almah - a young woman i.e. a nubile female.

There is a Hebrew word for virgin but the author of Isaiah did not employ it.

When she says 'since I have not known a man", it means she has never had sex.

[oxmixmudd]

Then you will be fully cognisant that the Hebrew word does not automatically apply to a woman who has not known a man .

You made this generalisation " It was naturally assumed that you meant a virgin when you were talking about a young woman. It was naturally assumed that you meant a virgin when you were talking about a young woman[1]. I mean, to declare that a child would be born of a young woman is pretty meaningless in that most are. Not much of a sign to look for. Happens over and over every day. It'd be like saying something will occur on a day that the sun had "risen" in the east.".You are immediately putting the later Christian "spin" on the Isaiah text.

That text had nothing to do with a Messiah or a virgin miraculously giving birth. In its historical context, the Isaianic passage may be seen as a reaction to completely contemporary events. In a time of trouble and the threat of foreign invasion,the prophet urged King Ahaz to ask Yahweh for a sign and when he refused to do so, told him that Yahweh would give him a sign. This was to be the birth of a child to an anonymous young woman. The child was to be named Immanuel [God is with us] and would grow up to experience the privations resulting from the Assyrian invasion of Judah predicted by the prophet. The primary reference of the sign was to the original situation in which it was given.

The fact is neither Jesus nor the disciples interpreted scripture according to the intellectually derived rules we try to set up today. Old testament scripture especially has meaning beyond the superficial meaning you are focused on, and Christ told us what those meanings are. No amount of mental wrangling can justify Christ's explanations, they are supernaturally understood and revealed by Him. So if you believe in Him, then the meaning is clear because He told us what they are, if you don't then it is not because you can't derive the meaning apart from the revelation of Christ Himself. Its that simple and that complex at the same time.

[rogue06]

When she says 'since I have not known a man", it means she has never had sex.

Which is why, as I noted, several translations say "since I am a virgin" and others use phrases like "since I have not had sexual relations with a man?" (Christian Standard Bible), "since I have not been intimate with a man?" (Holman Christian Bible), "since I have not had relations with a man?" (ISV) and "since I have not had sexual relations with a man?" (NET Bible). It is clear that Mary was a virgin which is something that HA has been assiduously avoiding.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

When she says 'since I have not known a man", it means she has never had sex.

That is a later interpretation of the Greek word.

The Septuagint [mis]translates "almah" in Isaiah 7.14 into παρθένος [parthenos]. However, in both the Greek and Hebrew parlance of the Jews the term “virgin” was used flexibly. It was certainly not confined to only denoting men and women who had no experience of sexual intercourse. The Greek word, παρθένος could explicitly or implicitly include this meaning, or the main stress could fall on the age of the girl or boy and generally, though not necessarily, on their unmarried state. For example, Greek and Latin inscriptions found in the Jewish catacombs reveal that the word “virgin” could apply, even after years of matrimony. A similar imprecision is manifest in the Greek version of Genesis, where the word for virgin [παρθένος] renders three different Hebrew words: bethulah = virgin, na’arah = girl, and almah = young woman.

In Hebrew, biblical and rabbinic, the term bethulah can indicate virgo intacta. The Pentateuch thus describes Rebecca as a very pretty girl, a virgin whom no man has known. The rabbis also explain that a virgin is a woman who has never had sexual intercourse. Nevertheless, another well-established usage of bethulah associates virginity, not with absence of sexual experience, but with an inability to conceive.

A virgin is a girl who has not yet attained puberty. This sort of “virginity” ends, not with intercourse, but with menstruation.

Asking “Who is a virgin?” the two earliest rabbinic codes, the Mishnah and the Tosephta, answer: “Whoever has never seen blood even though she is married”. The Tosephta, reflecting the teaching of the late 1st century CE. Rabbi Eliezer ben Hyrcanus adds: “I call a virgin whoever has not seen blood, even though she is married and has had children, until she has seen the first show.”

Meanwhile the Palestinian Talmud goes even further: Who is a virgin? According to the Mishnah, whoever has never seen blood even though she is married. She is said to be a virgin in respect of menstruation but not a virgin in respect of the token of virginity. Sometimes she is a virgin in the latter respect, but not a virgin in respect of menstruation. [7]

The evidence shows that it was possible for a girl to marry and cohabit with her husband before reaching puberty. In fact, it appears to have happened often enough to give rise to a dispute between the two leading rabbinic schools of the 1st century CE, on the subject of whether a bloodstain on the wedding night of a minor [i.e. a virgin in respect of menstruation] should be attributed to the rupture of the hymen or to her first period.

The more rigorous House of Shammai settled for the first alternative for the first four nights only., while the House of Hillel decided similarly but until the healing of the wound. [8]

Another consequence of such a state of affairs was that a girl could conceive while still a “virgin” in respect of menstruation, i.e. at the moment of her first ovulation. She could thus become a “virgin mother” of several children!

Moreover, given that physiological knowledge at this historical point was rudimentary at best, the supreme blessing of fertility was attributed not unsurprisingly to God and the reaction to such an unusual occurrence as pregnancy prior to the onset of puberty would have been to regard it as a particularly miraculous intervention of Heaven.

However, it should be noted that the consummation of a marriage with a minor met with the disapproval of those who considered procreation as the sole purpose of matrimony. Hence and for this reason, the Essenes who accepted marriage forbad cohabitation until after the girl had menstruated three times and thus proved herself both ready for, and capable of, conception.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Which is why, as I noted, several translations say "since I am a virgin" and others use phrases like "since I have not had sexual relations with a man?" (Christian Standard Bible), "since I have not been intimate with a man?" (Holman Christian Bible), "since I have not had relations with a man?" (ISV) and "since I have not had sexual relations with a man?" (NET Bible). It is clear that Mary was a virgin which is something that HA has been assiduously avoiding.

See above.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

The fact is neither Jesus nor the disciples interpreted scripture according to the intellectually derived rules we try to set up today.

How do you know?

Old testament scripture especially has meaning beyond the superficial meaning you are focused on

How do you know?

, and Christ told us what those meanings are.

No. The writers of the gospels tell you that. We do not have a signed and dated MS of the Memoirs of Jesus of Nazareth.

No amount of mental wrangling can justify Christ's explanations, they are supernaturally understood and revealed by Him. So if you believe in Him, then the meaning is clear because He told us what they are, if you don't then it is not because you can't derive the meaning apart from the revelation of Christ Himself. Its that simple and that complex at the same time.

Well you are entitled to your beliefs.

[oxmixmudd]

That is a later interpretation of the Greek word.

The Septuagint [mis]translates "almah" in Isaiah 7.14 into παρθένος [parthenos]. However, in both the Greek and Hebrew parlance of the Jews the term “virgin” was used flexibly. It was certainly not confined to only denoting men and women who had no experience of sexual intercourse. The Greek word, παρθένος could explicitly or implicitly include this meaning, or the main stress could fall on the age of the girl or boy and generally, though not necessarily, on their unmarried state. For example, Greek and Latin inscriptions found in the Jewish catacombs reveal that the word “virgin” could apply, even after years of matrimony. A similar imprecision is manifest in the Greek version of Genesis, where the word for virgin [παρθένος] renders three different Hebrew words: bethulah = virgin, na’arah = girl, and almah = young woman.

In Hebrew, biblical and rabbinic, the term bethulah can indicate virgo intacta. The Pentateuch thus describes Rebecca as a very pretty girl, a virgin whom no man has known. The rabbis also explain that a virgin is a woman who has never had sexual intercourse. Nevertheless, another well-established usage of bethulah associates virginity, not with absence of sexual experience, but with an inability to conceive. A virgin is a girl who has not yet attained puberty. This sort of “virginity” ends, not with intercourse, but with menstruation.
Asking “Who is a virgin?” the two earliest rabbinic codes, the Mishnah and the Tosephta, answer: “Whoever has never seen blood even though she is married”. The Tosephta, reflecting the teaching of the late 1st century CE. Rabbi Eliezer ben Hyrcanus adds: “I call a virgin whoever has not seen blood, even though she is married and has had children, until she has seen the first show.”

Meanwhile the Palestinian Talmud goes even further: Who is a virgin? According to the Mishnah, whoever has never seen blood even though she is married. She is said to be a virgin in respect of menstruation but not a virgin in respect of the token of virginity. Sometimes she is a virgin in the latter respect, but not a virgin in respect of menstruation. [7]

The evidence shows that it was possible for a girl to marry and cohabit with her husband before reaching puberty. In fact, it appears to have happened often enough to give rise to a dispute between the two leading rabbinic schools of the 1st century CE, on the subject of whether a bloodstain on the wedding night of a minor [i.e. a virgin in respect of menstruation] should be attributed to the rupture of the hymen or to her first period.

The more rigorous House of Shammai settled for the first alternative for the first four nights only., while the House of Hillel decided similarly but until the healing of the wound. [8]

Another consequence of such a state of affairs was that a girl could conceive while still a “virgin” in respect of menstruation, i.e. at the moment of her first ovulation. She could thus become a “virgin mother” of several children!

Moreover, given that physiological knowledge at this historical point was rudimentary at best, the supreme blessing of fertility was attributed not unsurprisingly to God and the reaction to such an unusual occurrence as pregnancy prior to the onset of puberty would have been to regard it as a particularly miraculous intervention of Heaven.

However, it should be noted that the consummation of a marriage with a minor met with the disapproval of those who considered procreation as the sole purpose of matrimony. Hence and for this reason, the Essenes who accepted marriage forbad cohabitation until after the girl had menstruated three times and thus proved herself both ready for, and capable of, conception.

( re the bolded first sentence ) No, it's not. in the old testament text, when it talks about a sex or the consummation of marriage, it uses the euphemism 'to know'. She's asking how she can be pregnant with respect to knowing a man. It has nothing to do with the meanings of individual words. She is saying how can she be pregnant since she has never had sex.

[rogue06]

See above.

You are still diligently determined that Luke makes it clear that Mary was a virgin. Why is that? Doesn't fit into your carefully crafted narrative?

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

You are still diligently determined that Luke makes it clear that Mary was a virgin. Why is that? Doesn't fit into your carefully crafted narrative?

The Greek word used in the Septuagint is parthenos - virgin in Isaiah 7.14 διὰ τοῦτο δώσει Κύριος αὐτὸς ὑμῖν σημεῖον· ἰδοὺ ἡ παρθένος ἐν γαστρὶ ἕξει, καὶ τέξεται υἱόν, καὶ καλέσεις τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ ᾿Εμμανουήλ [my emphasis]

I will be happy for you to cite me the earliest Greek MS of Luke that uses the exact phrase "I do not know a man".

[oxmixmudd]

How do you know?

How do you know?

No. The writers of the gospels tell you that. We do not have a signed and dated MS of the Memoirs of Jesus of Nazareth.

Well you are entitled to your beliefs.

Yes - I am entitled to my beliefs. And one of those is that trying to construct an image of who Christ was outside the records left behind by those that were the closest to him is a bit like chasing windmills. The teachings of Christ were communicated from person to person by word of mouth at first because His early disciples took very literally His declaration He would return soon. But eventually it became clear these teachings would need to be written down, and they were. As I said before, we have very early fragments of these records. The fragments we have match the later full manuscripts. There is no real evidence that these records are not records of what was passed from disciple to disciple as the teachings of Christ in the early years following his death and resurrection.

Now you are free to decide you don't believe Jesus was Messiah and thus not to believe his teachings or the stories about Him. But I don't believe there is any reason to believe the records we have in the Gospels are not accurate representations of what the very first disciples taught and believed about Him.

[rogue06]

The Greek word used in the Septuagint is parthenos - virgin in Isaiah 7.14 διὰ τοῦτο δώσει Κύριος αὐτὸς ὑμῖν σημεῖον· ἰδοὺ ἡ παρθένος ἐν γαστρὶ ἕξει, καὶ τέξεται υἱόν, καὶ καλέσεις τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ ᾿Εμμανουήλ [my emphasis]

I will be happy for you to cite me the earliest Greek MS of Luke that uses the exact phrase "I do not know a man".

Still ignoring what we read in Luke 1.

[rogue06]

How do you know?

How do you know?

No. The writers of the gospels tell you that. We do not have a signed and dated MS of the Memoirs of Jesus of Nazareth.

Well you are entitled to your beliefs.

It is always amusing watching atheists demand levels of evidence several magnitudes more stringent than they do for any other ancient texts.

[oxmixmudd]

The Greek word used in the Septuagint is parthenos - virgin in Isaiah 7.14 διὰ τοῦτο δώσει Κύριος αὐτὸς ὑμῖν σημεῖον· ἰδοὺ ἡ παρθένος ἐν γαστρὶ ἕξει, καὶ τέξεται υἱόν, καὶ καλέσεις τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ ᾿Εμμανουήλ [my emphasis]

I will be happy for you to cite me the earliest Greek MS of Luke that uses the exact phrase "I do not know a man".

Isaiah 7:14 is interpreted in light of Luke 1:34. Luke 1:34 is the fulfillment of the prophecy in Isaiah 7:14. And the meaning of like 1:34 is clear from the context. The specific Greek word used is irrelevant to understanding she is a virgin in the english sense of the word. The NASV interprets the greek as "How can this be since I am a virgin", but the Greek there is saying she is not connected in any way to a man. Other translations use different english words. But the Angel is telling her she is about to become pregnant. And she is saying "How can I become pregnant because ....". It doesn't matter what phrase finishes that thought, because a woman in 4 or 5 BC has to have had sex with a man to become pregnant, and the only sure reason for her to ask 'how can this be since' were since has anything to do with and man or procreation is that the phrase that follows means she has never had sex. Because if she had had sex, then it would be possible. The ONLY possible caveat would be the timing of the sex. So you'd have to argue that she just hadn't had sex in the last month or two, but the Greek is so terse and focuses on the lack of any kind of relationship with a man, which means such a relaxation of the meaning stretches credulity to the breaking point given the culture and the proclamation she was a righteous young woman.

Luke is saying she hasn't had sex, and that is why she wants to know how she is going to have this very special little boy.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Still ignoring what we read in Luke 1.

I will be happy for you to cite me the earliest Greek MS of Luke that uses the exact phrase "I do not know a man".