Republican ad associating Biden with the KKK.

[seanD]

You clearly have no available means of engaging in civil conversation it does appear. Why do you suppose it is that you feel you must treat every word I write as necessarily evil and born of dark motivations (i.e. "this might even include spiritual"). And why do you read so much more into my words than is actually there?

So since you edited it, I'll add the reason why I think it's spiritual. If you were to say, yes, Biden clearly has more of a racist history than Trump (and he clearly does), but Trump is so bad in other areas that it outweighs this fact. I might say you have no principle because you're being inconsistent, but I could respect your integrity because you're at least being truthful. There were hypocritical women that said they believe Tara Reade's story but think it's still politically necessary to get Trump out. I can at least respect that a whole lot more than phonies trying to downplay it like the story's not any more credible than Christine Blasey Ford. The fact you try and actually brush Biden's racism aside just makes you look like both an unprincipled and untruthful phony. Being unprincipled is one thing. Being untruthful is another, and that I believe gets into spiritual territory.

[shunyadragon]

Trump's supposed "racism" is at best debatable (which includes from the left absurd accusations and conspiracies that he's sending out "secret racist code" to a white supremacist base). Biden's racist history is fact, and there's no debate about the racist things that slips from his lips today, yet according to you the former is more of an issue than the latter. How can anyone reason with that logic?

ETA: You edited your post after I responded. Next time I'll wait.

The topic is the depiction of Biden with the Grand Wizard of the KKK and associated with members of the KKK.

[seanD]

The topic is the depiction of Biden with the Grand Wizard of the KKK and associated with members of the KKK.

And it was addressed by rogue quite thoroughly...

Byrd was a kleagle (KKK recruiter) as well as an Exalted Cyclops and lied repeatedly about his KKK membership but he was never a Grand Wizard.



Byrd often said that he joined the KKK because it was effective in "promoting traditional American values." Odd considering that the racist "values" the Klan promoted (Cross Burnings to Lynchings) were anything but American. One has to wonder if Byrd ever attended a cross burning or lynching while he was out celebrating those "traditional American values."

In 2003, Byrd had the gall to claim that he joined the KKK not because he was a racist, but because the Klan had taken a strong stance against communism. Of course Byrd’s subsequent words and actions demonstrate his racism, but that isn’t all. Back in 1943 the Reds were a valued ally during WWII. In 1943 FDR was still calling Stalin "Uncle Joe" and cheering their advances toward Berlin. It wasn’t until the outbreak of the Cold War in 1947 (four years after Byrd claims he left the Klan) that it was patriotic to be anti-communist.

In 1952 while running for Congress, Byrd claimed he had left the Klan in 1943 and said that during "the nine years that have followed, I have never been interested in the Klan."

Byrd was lying.

A letter he wrote to a KKK Imperial Wizard three years after he claimed to have ended his ties with the Klan demonstrates the falseness of Byrd's claim. In that letter, Byrd wrote:

“I am a former kleagle of the Klu Klux Klan in Raleigh County and the adjoining counties of the state. The Klan is in need today as never before and I am anxious to see its rebirth here in West Virginia.”

He went on to request aid from Klan leadership in "rebuilding the Klan in the realm" of West Virginia. Yup, sounds like he has absolutely no "interest in the Klan" alright.

A short time later, in a letter written on the subject of desegregation of the armed forces in the 1940's, after Byrd supposedly renounced his KKK membership, he vowed that he would never fight in the military

“with a Negro by my side. Rather I should die a thousand times and see old glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again, than see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback to the darkest specimen of the wilds.”

Uh-huh.

And twenty years after this revered Democratic Senator described African-Americans as "race mongrels" he stood on the U.S. Senate floor for over 14 hours filibustering to the bitter end against the 1964 Civil Rights Act (this was back when filibustering was tough and well before it was made much easier to do).

Finally, in 2001 Byrd still felt comfortable enough using the n-word that he did so not once but twice in public during a TV interview. And we're not talking about being caught by a hidden camera or overheard on a hot microphone that he didn't know was on during a private conversation. He said it to a reporter during an interview that was meant to be aired for a national audience. That indicates someone extremely comfortable using that language to the point it was second nature.

I mean, one can legitimately wonder how often he used it in private if he could use it without thinking in public.

Oh. And how did his fellow Democrats respond to his dropping the [n-word] twice during a TV interview? They promoted him.

A couple months later they made him President pro tempore of the United States Senate. And to be clear that isn't just some ceremonial position or title, but rather is the second-highest-ranking official of the United States Senate. They are third in the line of succession to the presidency, after the vice president and the Speaker of the House of Representatives and they preside over Senate sessions. Further, the President pro tempore makes appointment of various congressional officers as well as some commissions and advisory boards.

Now, imagine for a second that after a senior Republican Senator casually used the n-word a couple times in public during an interview to describe a group of people and then later issuing a simple "oops, my bad" apology for it. Do you think the media would have given him a free pass? Especially if he had a history like Byrd's?

And then imagine the Republicans turning around just a couple months later and making that person President pro tempore of the United States Senate. That would be sternly condemned nightly on news broadcasts for weeks to come as it would be "the" story.

[oxmixmudd]

So since you edited it, I'll add the reason why I think it's spiritual. If you were to say, yes, Biden clearly has more of a racist history than Trump (and he clearly does), but Trump is so bad in other areas that it outweighs this fact. I might say you have no principle because you're being inconsistent, but I could respect your integrity because you're at least being truthful. There were hypocritical women that said they believe Tara Reade's story but think it's still politically necessary to get Trump out. I can at least respect that a whole lot more than phonies trying to downplay it like the story's not any more credible than Christine Blasey Ford. The fact you try and actually brush Biden's racism aside just makes you look like both an unprincipled and untruthful phony. Being unprincipled is one thing. Being untruthful is another, and that I believe gets into spiritual territory.

This is my last post to you (for now at least) where I will deal with your bile which you direct at me :

What makes you think I'm trying to brush it aside? I thanked rogue for his information and said I'd look into it further. I do believe it is a problem, but in terms of November, it makes him no worse than Trump, and only on this issue. And further, unlike Trump, he does appear to have made real efforts to change over time. Trump is still feeding racists, still accepting their support, still acting much like Nixon in terms of his heavy handed 'law and order' approach which I just referenced and which was in fact a covert effort by Nixon to incarcerate black men. There is nothing about Trump which makes him 'better' than Biden wrt racism, even if the worst is true about Biden. But I am not just 'looking the other way' wrt Biden. Not by a long shot. And the history Rogue outlined means he'd better tread carefully. IF at one time he was comfortable being racist, those patterns of thought are still there (in fact we've seen a few gaffs that indicate they are already) and it will take a conscious effort on his part to make sure they are not still driving his thinking today.

[seanD]

This is my last post to you (for now at least) where I will deal with your bile which you direct at me :

What makes you think I'm trying to brush it aside? I thanked rogue for his information and said I'd look into it further. I do believe it is a problem, but in terms of November, it makes him no worse than Trump, and only on this issue. And further, unlike Trump, he does appear to have made real efforts to change over time. Trump is still feeding racists, still accepting their support, still acting much like Nixon in terms of his heavy handed 'law and order' approach which I just referenced and which was in fact a covert effort by Nixon to incarcerate black men. There is nothing about Trump which makes him 'better' than Biden wrt racism, even if the worst is true about Biden. But I am not just 'looking the other way' wrt Biden. Not by a long shot.

Definition of trying to brush it aside...

Interesting information Rogue. It is not my intent to argue against it in what follows, indeed I'll be looking into it to see where it goes.

However, the hyperpartisanship here would make it almost impossible to explore that past racist associations of many in both the republican and democratic parties - especially those with histories that precede the mid 1970's. Understanding that anyone that was in government in the early to mid 60's would have in all likelyhood been 'incorrectly aligned' as it were. Such were the times that allowed someone like George Wallace and Jesse Helms to rise to prominence. And while I believe it is important to understand them, and important for those that might once have been more closely allied with racist policies in the past, I do think that what is important today is where are they today. And for now at least Trump still carries with him some very heavy baggage wrt race, especially as he has reacted to the current racial tensions and issues.

You tried to justify Biden's racist history basically as "sign of the times." Being how you rant and rave about white racism, and how unjust blacks have been treated throughout history, on and on about slavery and civil rights, and accuse us all of being racists because we disagree with you, this is quite the absurdity. You also ignored the fact he still holds those racist views about blacks because it slips out of his declining cognitive brain here and there. I attribute that to dishonesty because I know for a fact you aren't that dumb to fooled by Biden's fake pro-black facade.

[oxmixmudd]

Trump's supposed "racism" is at best debatable (which includes from the left absurd accusations and conspiracies that he's sending out "secret racist code" to a white supremacist base). Biden's racist history is fact, and there's no debate about the racist things that slips from his lips today, yet according to you the former is more of an issue than the latter. How can anyone reason with that logic?

ETA: You edited your post after I responded. Next time I'll wait.

Trump directly engaged in racism wrt his properties during the same time period as Biden was fighting busing.

https://www.vox.com/2016/7/25/122708...racism-history

Source: above

1973: The US Department of Justice — under the Nixon administration, out of all administrations — sued the Trump Management Corporation for violating the Fair Housing Act. Federal officials found evidence that Trump had refused to rent to Black tenants and lied to Black applicants about whether apartments were available, among other accusations. Trump said the federal government was trying to get him to rent to welfare recipients. In the aftermath, he signed an agreement in 1975 agreeing not to discriminate to renters of color without admitting to previous discrimination.

© Copyright Original Source

Also keep in mind that Biden was fighting forced busing, not advocating for segregation. Forced busing was (and still is) a very controversial subject and a very unpopular idea (I was there, I lived it). Very long bus rides for very young children, white and black - sometimes 45 minutes or longer requiring very early pickups and very late dropoffs. Very costly in terms of driver pay and gas. Children in school very far from their homes making it hard to do extra-curricular activities or for parents to attend them. And it is no longer done and you'd be hard pressed to get it restarted, not because people want segregated schools but because it is itself a hardship on all involved.

[seanD]

Trump directly engaged in racism wrt his properties during the same time period as Biden was fighting busing.

https://www.vox.com/2016/7/25/122708...racism-history

Source: above

1973: The US Department of Justice — under the Nixon administration, out of all administrations — sued the Trump Management Corporation for violating the Fair Housing Act. Federal officials found evidence that Trump had refused to rent to Black tenants and lied to Black applicants about whether apartments were available, among other accusations. Trump said the federal government was trying to get him to rent to welfare recipients. In the aftermath, he signed an agreement in 1975 agreeing not to discriminate to renters of color without admitting to previous discrimination.

© Copyright Original Source

Also keep in mind that Biden was fighting forced busing, not advocating for segregation. Forced busing was (and still is) a very controversial subject and a very unpopular idea (I was there, I lived it). Very long bus rides for very young children, white and black - sometimes 45 minutes or longer requiring very early pickups and very late dropoffs. Very costly in terms of driver pay and gas. Children in school very far from their homes making it hard to do extra-curricular activities or for parents to attend them. And it is no longer done and you'd be hard pressed to get it restarted, not because people want segregated schools but because it is itself a hardship on all involved.

You're still desperately fighting to justify what is absurdly contradictory to your own expressed views about the history of white racism. Biden worked with white supremacists to fight against busing in '75, then he expanded his anti-integration policies in '77, which failed to pass. He also fought against it even though the data showed the achievement gaps were narrowing. As far as all the negative reasons you give for busing, you'll have to show where Biden was influenced by any one of those reasons. Biden has only claimed he was against federal busing, but that could very easily be seen as just a front. The guy was a democrat after all. Busing was a means to desegregation and the states were failing to do this, and he worked with other racists that believed blacks were inferior and we know why they opposed busing. There's no reason whatsoever to assume Biden didn't also hold these views about blacks since he worked with them. To assume he didn't hold those views is just speculation, and based on what he's said about blacks in the past and even today, most likely false.

[Mountain Man]

I know for a fact you aren't that dumb to fooled by Biden's fake pro-black facade.

"If you have a problem figuring out whether you're for me or Trump, then you ain't black!"
-Joe Biden

[seer]

Trump directly engaged in racism wrt his properties during the same time period as Biden was fighting busing.

Donald Trump furiously fought the civil rights suit in the courts and the media, but the Trumps eventually settled on terms that were widely regarded as a victory for the government. Three years later, the government sued the Trumps again, for continuing to discriminate.

In fairness, those suits date from long ago, and the discriminatory policies were probably put in place not by Donald Trump but by his father.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/24/o...-a-racist.html

[Mountain Man]

Donald Trump furiously fought the civil rights suit in the courts and the media, but the Trumps eventually settled on terms that were widely regarded as a victory for the government. Three years later, the government sued the Trumps again, for continuing to discriminate.

In fairness, those suits date from long ago, and the discriminatory policies were probably put in place not by Donald Trump but by his father.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/24/o...-a-racist.html

And ox already gave an excuse for that. Quoting from his previous post:

"Understanding that anyone that was in government business in the early to mid 60's would have in all likelyhood been 'incorrectly aligned' as it were. Such were the times..."

[shunyadragon]

And it was addressed by rogue quite thoroughly...

The topic is the depiction of Biden with the Grand Wizard of the KKK and associated with members of the KKK, which is not true.

[rogue06]

The topic is the depiction of Biden with the Grand Wizard of the KKK and associated with members of the KKK, which is not true.

The first part is not true, but the second part (that he "associated with members of the KKK") is incontrovertibly true.

[shunyadragon]

The first part is not true, but the second part (that he "associated with members of the KKK") is incontrovertibly true.

False

[oxmixmudd]

You're still desperately fighting to justify what is absurdly contradictory to your own expressed views about the history of white racism. Biden worked with white supremacists to fight against busing in '75, then he expanded his anti-integration policies in '77, which failed to pass. He also fought against it even though the data showed the achievement gaps were narrowing. As far as all the negative reasons you give for busing, you'll have to show where Biden was influenced by any one of those reasons. Biden has only claimed he was against federal busing, but that could very easily be seen as just a front. The guy was a democrat after all. Busing was a means to desegregation and the states were failing to do this, and he worked with other racists that believed blacks were inferior and we know why they opposed busing. There's no reason whatsoever to assume Biden didn't also hold these views about blacks since he worked with them. To assume he didn't hold those views is just speculation, and based on what he's said about blacks in the past and even today, most likely false.

I told you. These issues for Biden are not good. They mean he was a man of his times and doing what the many of the white congressman and senators of that time were doing. And it was wrong, and I have no qualms about saying it was wrong. You are trying to create a conflict in my positions when there is not one.

But wrt to today, Trump is a disaster and I will vote for anyone that is not worse. Biden is not worse, so I'll vote for him. And he is not currently ensnared with the white supremacists, and Trump is. So that is the way it is.

We could talk about the hypocrisy of pointing a finger at Trump's past racism when Biden has his own and we could agree, both of them were racist then, and both of them were wrong. So Biden has no right to point a finger at Trump's past racism. And Trump and Biden are not differentiated by examining what they did in the past wrt racism in America.

But these are the choices we have. Biden has a black woman running mate, so he clearly is not acting on whatever racist tendencies he may have had at one time. Trump OTOH seems to revel in nearly every bad tendency a human can have.

[oxmixmudd]

And ox already gave an excuse for that. Quoting from his previous post:

"Understanding that anyone that was in government business in the early to mid 60's would have in all likelyhood been 'incorrectly aligned' as it were. Such were the times..."

I was comparing apples to apples MM. In that time, the both were acting out of the racism prevalent in that day. The question for us today is which of them is still reveling in the racism of that day, which of them is now working to undo the legacies of that time, and which of them actively courts people still allied with the racism of that time.