As the justice system slowly . . . Trump's problems are not going away.

[shunyadragon]

Source: https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/516112-senate-panel-seek-documents-in-probe-of-dhs-whistleblower-complaint

Senate panel seeks documents in probe of DHS whistleblower complaint

© Copyright Original Source

[seer]

[Mountain Man]

Don't laugh, seer, they're sure to get Trump this time. No, really.

[shunyadragon]

Bowling with heads.

[seer]

Don't laugh, seer, they're sure to get Trump this time. No, really.

It's funny, the Biden team is not bringing up Trump's impeachment. It must not be polling well...

[seanD]

It's funny, the Biden team is not bringing up Trump's impeachment. It must not be polling well...

You'd think an issue that lasted the majority of Trump's term and created so much press sensationalism would be brought up during the election if it has been based on any sort of principle.

[Mountain Man]

You'd think an issue that lasted the majority of Trump's term and created so much press sensationalism would be brought up during the election if it has been based on any sort of principle.

Come to think of it, has the Biden campaign been able to consistently attack Trump on any one point? Seems like they're flailing around.

[seanD]

Come to think of it, has the Biden campaign been able to consistently attack Trump on any one point? Seems like they're flailing around.

I haven't been keeping track myself because whenever I hear Biden speak it just sounds like an addled elder person who can barely form a coherent sentence. I know he's incessantly criticized Trump about his covid response and not "following the science," the typical leftist trope, but the only thing Trump didn't follow the science on was a national lockdown, something that Fauci was adamant about. And that turned out to be a disaster for a lot of the states that did lock down. So, even though the left wanted Trump to get authoritarian (likely so they'd accuse him of that as well), Trump did the constitutional thing and left it up the states, and all the states that didn't lock down had better results.

[LiconaFan97]

I haven't been keeping track myself because whenever I hear Biden speak it just sounds like an addled elder person who can barely form a coherent sentence. I know he's incessantly criticized Trump about his covid response and not "following the science," the typical leftist trope, but the only thing Trump didn't follow the science on was a national lockdown, something that Fauci was adamant about. And that turned out to be a disaster for a lot of the states that did lock down. So, even though the left wanted Trump to get authoritarian (likely so they'd accuse him of that as well), Trump did the constitutional thing and left it up the states, and all the states that didn't lock down had better results.

And masks. And social distancing. And honestly stating that COVID is far more deadly than the flu and with long term health effects far more serious than the flu. And honestly revealing that it's not just "old people" who are at risk. And not pressuring states like Florida and Texas to prematurely open. And not placing political pressure on HHS to manipulate data. And not asking to "slow the testing down." And packing his supporters elbow to elbow in rally after rally to this day (literally happened today).

None of those things he failed to do are controversial, ineffective, or things he wasn't aware were recommended and needed.

[seanD]

And masks. And social distancing. And honestly stating that COVID is far more deadly than the flu and with long term health effects far more serious than the flu. And honestly revealing that it's not just "old people" who are at risk. And not pressuring states like Florida and Texas from prematurely opening.

None of those things he failed to do are controversial, ineffective, or things he wasn't aware were recommended and needed.

Fauci, his science advisor, was the one who downplayed wearing a mask. Senior citizens ARE more at risk for covid. Nine states that didn't lockdown at all had low fatalities and better economies, so the effectiveness of whether Texas or Florida shutdown or didn't shutdown or opened too early or whether they would have just ended up with as high fatalities as other states that opened up later is highly debatable. Trump pressuring states to lockdown not only would have been unconstitutional, but probably downright stupid.

[LiconaFan97]

Fauci, his science advisor, was the one who downplayed wearing a mask. Senior citizens ARE more at risk for covid. Nine states that didn't lockdown at all had low fatalities and better economies, so the effectiveness of whether Texas or Florida shutdown or didn't shutdown or opened too early or whether they would have just ended up with as high fatalities as other states that opened up later is highly debatable. Trump pressuring states to lockdown not only would have been unconstitutional, but probably downright stupid.

Do you know why Fauci initially discouraged widespread mask usage? He's been very explicit about why he said what he said and what circumstances prompted him to start recommending them unequivocally. Why hasn't Trump changed his stance?

I didn't dispute that older people are more at risk than younger people. I said to be honest that COVID poses a risk for younger people as well. He thought the danger to young people was noteworthy enough to mention it to Woodward.

Every state had at least a partial lockdown.

You can correlate the increase in cases and deaths in Florida and Texas very easily with the date of their reopening.

And no, it would not have been unconstitutional to pressure states to lock down.

This is totally off topic for this thread so I'll leave it there but you're clearly not very informed on this matter.

[seanD]

Show me an in-context quote of Fauci saying that masks don't help. I know of an out-of-context one that made the rounds. And in the full clip from that interview Fauci puts on a mask.

I didn't dispute that older people are more at risk than younger people. I said to be honest that COVID poses a risk for younger people as well. He thought the danger to young people was noteworthy enough to mention it to Woodward.

Every state had at least a partial lockdown.

You can correlate the increase in cases and deaths in Florida and Texas very easily with the date of their reopening.

And no, it would not have been unconstitutional to pressure states to lock down.

This is totally off topic for this thread so I'll leave it there but you're clearly not very informed on this matter.

Nine states specifically had no stay-at-home order, which is what I meant by lockdown/shutdown. There's no possible way to gauge the effectiveness of how each state would have fared in this regard only to note that most states with the strictest lockdowns faced the worse fatalities and highest unemployment (the moral probably is that a national lockdown would have been even more of a disaster, as each state had different nuances and thus required different approaches to effectively avoid fatalities with the least amount of economic damage).

Fauci not only downplayed wearing a mask, but admitted he intentionally did it so as to avoid a mask shortage for medical personnel. I mean, if you don't even know that, then there's no point even continuing the discussion, and if you think it's off topic then don't start it, especially one you're obviously uninformed about.

[LiconaFan97]

Nine states specifically had no stay-at-home order, which is what I meant by lockdown/shutdown. There's no possible way to gauge the effectiveness of how each state would have fared in this regard only to note that most states with the strictest lockdowns faced the worse fatalities and highest unemployment (the moral probably is that a national lockdown would have been even more of a disaster, as each state had different nuances and thus required different approaches to effectively avoid fatalities with the least amount of economic damage).

Fauci not only downplayed wearing a mask, but admitted he intentionally did it so as to avoid a mask shortage for medical personnel. I mean, if you don't even know that, then there's no point even continuing the discussion, and if you think it's off topic then don't start it, especially one you're obviously uninformed about.

Some of those nine states had partial stay at home orders I believe. So the number nine is high. I think only five had no stay at home orders of any kind. And I'm fine with that. Some states are really big and don't have very many people. My state had a full stay at home order so I didn't really pay much attention to other states.

If you know the reason why Fauci said that then why bring it up? Surely he gave Trump the true answer which is that masks would help. You are also doubtless aware that Trump has failed to offer any sort of similar unequivocal public endorsement of mask usage now that Fauci has given clear, public guidance. So it's false that Trump has followed the science excepting a national lockdown (no idea if that was recommended). That was the only point I was trying to make to correct your off topic claim.

[seanD]

Some of those nine states had partial stay at home orders I believe. So the number nine is high. I think only five had no stay at home orders of any kind. And I'm fine with that. Some states are really big and don't have very many people. My state had a full stay at home order so I didn't really pay much attention to other states.

If you know the reason why Fauci said that then why bring it up? Surely he gave Trump the true answer which is that masks would help. You are also doubtless aware that Trump has failed to offer any sort of similar unequivocal public endorsement of mask usage now that Fauci has given clear, public guidance. So it's false that Trump has followed the science excepting a national lockdown (no idea if that was recommended). That was the only point I was trying to make to correct your off topic claim.

If science experts were lying about masks because they wanted to reserve them, why would Trump show any support of its necessity? By him wearing one in public, he'd be setting an example of its necessity and thus defeating the purpose of the lie. IOW, Trump WAS following the science in that regard.

And yeah, I was wrong, as there were three states that had partial lockdown orders and five that had none. Those eight had low fatalities (35 per 100k or lower) vs. states that had extreme lockdown orders and faced the highest fatalities (from 68-179 per 100k). Those 8 states also had the lower unemployment than their lockdown counterparts, so my point was this talk of a national lockdown, something Fauci strongly urged, is utter nonsense. Trump made the correct move NOT following the science in case and leaving it up the states.

[LiconaFan97]

If science experts were lying about masks because they wanted to reserve them, why would Trump show any support of its necessity? By him wearing one in public, he'd be setting an example of its necessity and thus defeating the purpose of the lie. IOW, Trump WAS following the science in that regard.

I doubt anyone would disagree that the president should have a mask even if they are in vanishingly short supply. He's not only the president but he also comes in close contact with the vice president and any number of high level government employees on a regular basis.

And now that masks are readily available why has he not clearly, publicly, and unequivocally recommended their use?