Originally posted by JimLamebrain
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WHISLEBLOWER: Trump manipulating intelligance
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Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostThen why were Shifty and the gang begging the Senate to use the trail as a fact finding exercise so they could cobble together enough evidence to finally make their case?
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Originally posted by Electric Skeptic View PostFacts don't care about your feelings. The charges were accurate and any official trying to serve the country rather than his party would have voted to impeach Trump.
Keep sniffing Shifty Shiff's byproducts...
Voting to not remove him is serving their party.
There was no such precedent or attempt at it. Trump was impeached for his actions, not is opinions.
Trump sychophancy on full display.That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostThen why were Shifty and the gang begging the Senate to use the trail as a fact finding exercise so they could cobble together enough evidence to finally make their case?
Schiff made his case successfully. The additional evidence sought was so that even the slowest trump supporters could understand what was happening.
Months later trump supporters claim there was no evidence.....
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Originally posted by Watermelon View PostYou seem to forget that by the time schiff was finished the entire senate, including republicans, accepted that trump attempted to condition military aid to Ukraine for personal benefit. The republicans then completely backflipped and took the position that while what trump did was wrong, it didn’t warrant removal.
Schiff made his case successfully. The additional evidence sought was so that even the slowest trump supporters could understand what was happening.
Months later trump supporters claim there was no evidence.....That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
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Originally posted by JimLamebrain View PostAllowing new evidence and witnesses at the Senate trial has precident...
Really, I don't know why you're angry at the Republicans here when you should be angry at the Democrats for thoroughly botching what you seem to think was a slamdunk case.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Watermelon View PostYou seem to forget that by the time schiff was finished the entire senate, including republicans, accepted that trump attempted to condition military aid to Ukraine for personal benefit.
In the end, the only thing Shifty and the gang proved is that Trump had a cordial phone call with the president of the Ukraine.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostNo they didn't. There was never any evidence that Trump withheld aid for his own personal gain. It was all hearsay and "I heard from a guy who heard from a guy" witnesses. Not a single witness reported hearing anything directly from Trump that would implicate him in a crime.
In the end, the only thing Shifty and the gang proved is that Trump had a cordial phone call with the president of the Ukraine.
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Originally posted by JimLamebrain View PostIt's a good thing for you that a severe case of cognitive dissonance isn't fatal, MM.
Weak point. Yell louder.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostNo they didn't. There was never any evidence that Trump withheld aid for his own personal gain. It was all hearsay and "I heard from a guy who heard from a guy" witnesses. Not a single witness reported hearing anything directly from Trump that would implicate him in a crime.
In the end, the only thing Shifty and the gang proved is that Trump had a cordial phone call with the president of the Ukraine.
The aid was withheld without reason. There was also trumps three amigos whose sole purpose seemingly was to persuade the Ukrainians to announce an investigation into the Biden’s and the 2016 election. That’s a team of officials used to run personal errands for Trump.
Trumps favor in the phone call is for Ukraine to look into the Biden’s and to speak to Giuliani. Trumps team continue pressuring for that announcement and make it known that Biden had to be named.
What’s clear is that the Ukrainians had no desire to investigate the Biden’s let alone make a public announcement. The public announcement would’ve politically benefitted Trump as Biden was likely to become his presidential opponent. It also would’ve made some question Russia’s 2016 election meddling.
US officials involved also came to the conclusion that the aid was held until the announcement was made. There was no legitimate reason for the aid to be held otherwise they would’ve been informed of that reason when it happened. The White House visit was conditioned on the announcement prior to this.
All trump had to do was come up with a valid reason for why the aid was put on hold. None of the reasons put forward by trumps defense was consistent with any directions given to the relevant departments during this period.
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Originally posted by Watermelon View PostThere was overwhelming direct and circumstantial evidence that not only proved this specific claim but also meticulously detailed a months long scheme to leverage the newly elected Ukrainian administration for future personal agendas.
The aid was withheld without reason. There was also trumps three amigos whose sole purpose seemingly was to persuade the Ukrainians to announce an investigation into the Biden’s and the 2016 election. That’s a team of officials used to run personal errands for Trump.
Trumps favor in the phone call is for Ukraine to look into the Biden’s and to speak to Giuliani. Trumps team continue pressuring for that announcement and make it known that Biden had to be named.
What’s clear is that the Ukrainians had no desire to investigate the Biden’s let alone make a public announcement. The public announcement would’ve politically benefitted Trump as Biden was likely to become his presidential opponent. It also would’ve made some question Russia’s 2016 election meddling.
US officials involved also came to the conclusion that the aid was held until the announcement was made. There was no legitimate reason for the aid to be held otherwise they would’ve been informed of that reason when it happened. The White House visit was conditioned on the announcement prior to this.
All trump had to do was come up with a valid reason for why the aid was put on hold. None of the reasons put forward by trumps defense was consistent with any directions given to the relevant departments during this period.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostWeak point. Yell louder.Last edited by JimL; 09-14-2020, 11:58 PM.
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostKeep sniffing Shifty Shiff's byproducts...
Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostMaybe as an after-effect, but it was still the right decision.
Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostNo he wasn't. He was impeached because the Democrats witch hunted every angle they could, and this was the best they could offer, which amounted to bupkis.
Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostPee Wee Herman response noted.America - too good to let the conservatives drag it back to 1950.
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostNone of this was proven with direct evidence. It was entirely based on idle supposition and "I heard from a guy who heard from a guy" office gossip. In fact, Gordon Sondland, the only witness on record who spoke directly with the President about the matter, testified that he was told emphatically and unambiguously that there was to be no quid pro quo.
Rarely is a case proven to absolute certainty because there’s rarely ever a case where every single bit of relevant information is available. Proving an allegation is a matter of presenting a case that is more likely to account for the evidence, or in criminal law, presenting the only reasonable explanation for the available evidence.
Here we have military aid being withheld. The allegation is that the aid was withheld to pressure Ukraine into making an announcement that would damage a political opponent
To support this claim the house presented evidence of a trump picked team working to pressure Ukraine into making the announcement using the White House visit and military aid as leverage.
The house claims this was the reason the aid was withheld.
Trumps defense would’ve been so simple if there was a legitimate reason. His defense offered some general broad reasons why the aid was withheld but quickly scrapped that effort once it was known that Bolton’s book claimed trump told Bolton no aid without announcement. Then came the ‘even if it’s true, it’s not impeachable defense’ which essentially amounts to conceding defeat but removing its consequences.
Trumps other defenses include:
- Mountain mans defense; trump said no quid pro quo. No direct connection from aid hold and announcement. (Request to hear subpoena witnesses that were in a position to hear this from trump denied; also actions speak louder than words when looking at intent).
- Ukraine said they weren’t pressured and didn’t know aid was withheld. (Laura Cooper testified that Ukraine was aware almost immediately)
- trumps done more for Ukraine than Obama. (Really scraping the bottom of the barrel here)
Notice how trumps defense tries to focus on largely irrelevant points instead of a plausible explanation on why the aid was withheld. Like everyone else, they realized there’s no other reasonable explanation.
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