Announcement

Collapse

Civics 101 Guidelines

Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!

Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less

WHISLEBLOWER: Trump manipulating intelligance

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #91
    Originally posted by JimLamebrain View Post
    But there was plenty enough evidence as it was...
    Then why were Shifty and the gang begging the Senate to use the trail as a fact finding exercise so they could cobble together enough evidence to finally make their case?
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
      Then why were Shifty and the gang begging the Senate to use the trail as a fact finding exercise so they could cobble together enough evidence to finally make their case?
      Allowing new evidence and witnesses at the Senate trial has precident, so the question is why did the Senate block that evidence and those witnesses? I think you know why, though I also know that you'll never admit to it.

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by Electric Skeptic View Post
        Facts don't care about your feelings. The charges were accurate and any official trying to serve the country rather than his party would have voted to impeach Trump.

        Keep sniffing Shifty Shiff's byproducts...


        Voting to not remove him is serving their party.
        Maybe as an after-effect, but it was still the right decision.


        There was no such precedent or attempt at it. Trump was impeached for his actions, not is opinions.
        No he wasn't. He was impeached because the Democrats witch hunted every angle they could, and this was the best they could offer, which amounted to bupkis.



        Trump sychophancy on full display.
        Pee Wee Herman response noted.
        That's what
        - She

        Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
        - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

        I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
        Stephen R. Donaldson

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
          Then why were Shifty and the gang begging the Senate to use the trail as a fact finding exercise so they could cobble together enough evidence to finally make their case?
          You seem to forget that by the time schiff was finished the entire senate, including republicans, accepted that trump attempted to condition military aid to Ukraine for personal benefit. The republicans then completely backflipped and took the position that while what trump did was wrong, it didnít warrant removal.

          Schiff made his case successfully. The additional evidence sought was so that even the slowest trump supporters could understand what was happening.

          Months later trump supporters claim there was no evidence.....

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by Watermelon View Post
            You seem to forget that by the time schiff was finished the entire senate, including republicans, accepted that trump attempted to condition military aid to Ukraine for personal benefit. The republicans then completely backflipped and took the position that while what trump did was wrong, it didnít warrant removal.

            Schiff made his case successfully. The additional evidence sought was so that even the slowest trump supporters could understand what was happening.

            Months later trump supporters claim there was no evidence.....
            Sorry, but there was never any evidence that the aid was withheld for "personal benefit" and a ton that it was withheld for national interests.
            That's what
            - She

            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
            Stephen R. Donaldson

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by JimLamebrain View Post
              Allowing new evidence and witnesses at the Senate trial has precident...
              Yep, and all the Democrats had to do was convince a simple majority of Senators that they had enough of a case to continue the trial, but they couldn't even clear that low hurdle.

              Really, I don't know why you're angry at the Republicans here when you should be angry at the Democrats for thoroughly botching what you seem to think was a slamdunk case.
              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
              Than a fool in the eyes of God


              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by Watermelon View Post
                You seem to forget that by the time schiff was finished the entire senate, including republicans, accepted that trump attempted to condition military aid to Ukraine for personal benefit.
                No they didn't. There was never any evidence that Trump withheld aid for his own personal gain. It was all hearsay and "I heard from a guy who heard from a guy" witnesses. Not a single witness reported hearing anything directly from Trump that would implicate him in a crime.

                In the end, the only thing Shifty and the gang proved is that Trump had a cordial phone call with the president of the Ukraine.
                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                  No they didn't. There was never any evidence that Trump withheld aid for his own personal gain. It was all hearsay and "I heard from a guy who heard from a guy" witnesses. Not a single witness reported hearing anything directly from Trump that would implicate him in a crime.

                  In the end, the only thing Shifty and the gang proved is that Trump had a cordial phone call with the president of the Ukraine.
                  It's a good thing for you that a severe case of cognitive dissonance isn't fatal, MM.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by JimL View Post
                    It's a good thing for you that a severe case of cognitive dissonance isn't fatal, MM.
                    still haven't bought yourself a new Monitor I see, that mirror you replaced it with is not doing you any good.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by JimLamebrain View Post
                      It's a good thing for you that a severe case of cognitive dissonance isn't fatal, MM.

                      Weak point. Yell louder.
                      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                      Than a fool in the eyes of God


                      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                        No they didn't. There was never any evidence that Trump withheld aid for his own personal gain. It was all hearsay and "I heard from a guy who heard from a guy" witnesses. Not a single witness reported hearing anything directly from Trump that would implicate him in a crime.

                        In the end, the only thing Shifty and the gang proved is that Trump had a cordial phone call with the president of the Ukraine.
                        There was overwhelming direct and circumstantial evidence that not only proved this specific claim but also meticulously detailed a months long scheme to leverage the newly elected Ukrainian administration for future personal agendas.

                        The aid was withheld without reason. There was also trumps three amigos whose sole purpose seemingly was to persuade the Ukrainians to announce an investigation into the Bidenís and the 2016 election. Thatís a team of officials used to run personal errands for Trump.

                        Trumps favor in the phone call is for Ukraine to look into the Bidenís and to speak to Giuliani. Trumps team continue pressuring for that announcement and make it known that Biden had to be named.

                        Whatís clear is that the Ukrainians had no desire to investigate the Bidenís let alone make a public announcement. The public announcement wouldíve politically benefitted Trump as Biden was likely to become his presidential opponent. It also wouldíve made some question Russiaís 2016 election meddling.

                        US officials involved also came to the conclusion that the aid was held until the announcement was made. There was no legitimate reason for the aid to be held otherwise they wouldíve been informed of that reason when it happened. The White House visit was conditioned on the announcement prior to this.

                        All trump had to do was come up with a valid reason for why the aid was put on hold. None of the reasons put forward by trumps defense was consistent with any directions given to the relevant departments during this period.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Watermelon View Post
                          There was overwhelming direct and circumstantial evidence that not only proved this specific claim but also meticulously detailed a months long scheme to leverage the newly elected Ukrainian administration for future personal agendas.

                          The aid was withheld without reason. There was also trumps three amigos whose sole purpose seemingly was to persuade the Ukrainians to announce an investigation into the Bidenís and the 2016 election. Thatís a team of officials used to run personal errands for Trump.

                          Trumps favor in the phone call is for Ukraine to look into the Bidenís and to speak to Giuliani. Trumps team continue pressuring for that announcement and make it known that Biden had to be named.

                          Whatís clear is that the Ukrainians had no desire to investigate the Bidenís let alone make a public announcement. The public announcement wouldíve politically benefitted Trump as Biden was likely to become his presidential opponent. It also wouldíve made some question Russiaís 2016 election meddling.

                          US officials involved also came to the conclusion that the aid was held until the announcement was made. There was no legitimate reason for the aid to be held otherwise they wouldíve been informed of that reason when it happened. The White House visit was conditioned on the announcement prior to this.

                          All trump had to do was come up with a valid reason for why the aid was put on hold. None of the reasons put forward by trumps defense was consistent with any directions given to the relevant departments during this period.
                          None of this was proven with direct evidence. It was entirely based on idle supposition and "I heard from a guy who heard from a guy" office gossip. In fact, Gordon Sondland, the only witness on record who spoke directly with the President about the matter, testified that he was told emphatically and unambiguously that there was to be no quid pro quo.
                          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                          Than a fool in the eyes of God


                          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                            Weak point. Yell louder.
                            No, it's just over your head I'm afraid. All the facts have been laid out before you many times over these past 4 years, but you, due to the cognitive dissonance stemming from your extreme bias, are never going to accept them. It has to be either that, a psychological problem, or you actually are an ignorant buffoon. I don't believe the latter to be the case, so I'm left with the assumption that you are suffering from the former. Although there is a third option which is that you're aware of the facts, you're aware of Trumps corruption, and you're simply fiegning ignorance because you're actually complicit with the corruption you defend. That option may very well be the more likely answer in your case.
                            Last edited by JimL; 09-15-2020, 12:58 AM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                              Keep sniffing Shifty Shiff's byproducts...
                              Not interested in this sort of childishness.


                              Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                              Maybe as an after-effect, but it was still the right decision.
                              No, it was not.


                              Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                              No he wasn't. He was impeached because the Democrats witch hunted every angle they could, and this was the best they could offer, which amounted to bupkis.
                              Of course he was. He was impeached because of his use of the office to pressure a foreign power to attack an opponent.


                              Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                              Pee Wee Herman response noted.
                              Not interested in this sort of childishness, either.
                              America - too good to let the conservatives drag it back to 1950.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                                None of this was proven with direct evidence. It was entirely based on idle supposition and "I heard from a guy who heard from a guy" office gossip. In fact, Gordon Sondland, the only witness on record who spoke directly with the President about the matter, testified that he was told emphatically and unambiguously that there was to be no quid pro quo.
                                We both use an adversarial system of law where two parties present their version of events supported by evidence.

                                Rarely is a case proven to absolute certainty because thereís rarely ever a case where every single bit of relevant information is available. Proving an allegation is a matter of presenting a case that is more likely to account for the evidence, or in criminal law, presenting the only reasonable explanation for the available evidence.

                                Here we have military aid being withheld. The allegation is that the aid was withheld to pressure Ukraine into making an announcement that would damage a political opponent

                                To support this claim the house presented evidence of a trump picked team working to pressure Ukraine into making the announcement using the White House visit and military aid as leverage.

                                The house claims this was the reason the aid was withheld.

                                Trumps defense wouldíve been so simple if there was a legitimate reason. His defense offered some general broad reasons why the aid was withheld but quickly scrapped that effort once it was known that Boltonís book claimed trump told Bolton no aid without announcement. Then came the Ďeven if itís true, itís not impeachable defenseí which essentially amounts to conceding defeat but removing its consequences.

                                Trumps other defenses include:

                                - Mountain mans defense; trump said no quid pro quo. No direct connection from aid hold and announcement. (Request to hear subpoena witnesses that were in a position to hear this from trump denied; also actions speak louder than words when looking at intent).

                                - Ukraine said they werenít pressured and didnít know aid was withheld. (Laura Cooper testified that Ukraine was aware almost immediately)

                                - trumps done more for Ukraine than Obama. (Really scraping the bottom of the barrel here)

                                Notice how trumps defense tries to focus on largely irrelevant points instead of a plausible explanation on why the aid was withheld. Like everyone else, they realized thereís no other reasonable explanation.

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by CivilDiscourse, 10-24-2020, 08:17 AM
                                3 responses
                                56 views
                                1 like
                                Last Post Starlight  
                                Started by LiconaFan97, 10-23-2020, 04:56 PM
                                29 responses
                                192 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Starlight  
                                Started by Juvenal, 10-23-2020, 11:08 AM
                                10 responses
                                103 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Juvenal
                                by Juvenal
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 10-23-2020, 08:52 AM
                                6 responses
                                66 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post rogue06
                                by rogue06
                                 
                                Started by Ronson, 10-22-2020, 10:59 PM
                                78 responses
                                593 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Ronson
                                by Ronson
                                 
                                Working...
                                X