Originally posted by oxmixmudd
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American Christianity’s White-Supremacy Problem
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Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Gondwanaland View PostYes, it is.
The blood libel is a later medieval conception premised on certain specific texts found in the New Testament.
Anti Jewish feeling in Egypt in the late first century CE and early first century CE [and Apion was certainly anti-Judaic] had nothing to do with the Jewish religion. The account Apion presents [and which is first recorded by Posidonius in the second century BCE] is of a blood sacrifice and ritual cannibalism, the latter calumny against the Jews would later appear in the writings of John Chrysostom [347-407 CE].
Originally posted by Gondwanaland View PostThat's nice, but does not change that it is literally blood libel.
Originally posted by Gondwanaland View PostNot surprised to see you carry water for anti-semites though.
However, we can never be entirely sure who or what might be the topic of your stream of conscious contributions.
Originally posted by Gondwanaland View PostThat you cannot grasp the analogy indicates your lack of critical thinking abilities."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by seer View PostThen why bring Jews who voted for Hitler up? Most people didn't know his true views in 1933.
Do you now realise how ridiculous your suppositions are?
Just to give you a very brief overview of the situation in Germany at the time. You need to remember that Germany had only become a democracy and a republic after the end of WW1 [i.e. post 1918].
However, barely fourteen years later in 1932 German democracy was in terminal decline. The country had been devastated by economic depression and hyper inflation and the various coalition governments that had been formed in those years had appeared incapable of ending the misery and many ordinary Germans had lost faith in this new democratic system. By the early 1930s the army, the large landholders, and most industrial leaders wanted some form of authoritarianism, which was the system that Germany had been accustomed to under the Kaiser. As elsewhere politics in Germany had become polarised.
The Nazi party had been gaining support from its 2.6% share of the vote in 1928 and by 1930 [only two years later] was the second largest political party in the Reichstag. It is therefore hardly surprising that the Nazis believed they were on the cusp of power following those July 1932 elections, despite the fact that the KPD [Communist Party] was also gaining support.
By the end of July 1932 and after four elections had been held that year [two presidential, Landtag and Reichstag] the party had reached the pinnacle of its electoral success in a freely held democratic process. It had gained 37.4% of the vote which made it Germany’s largest political party at the time, but not an outright overall winner. A fifth election in November 1932 saw a drop in the Nazi vote.
The later appointment of Hitler as Chancellor on 30 January 1933 [as part of a coalition government] followed that November election set back. It was not an outright Nazi victory. The Nazis never, under a free and democratic process, obtained overall control. They could only achieve that when all opposition had been removed.
Originally posted by seer View PostBut that is the history of your people, own it...
After 30 January 1933 the SA unleash hitherto unprecedented levels of violence against all their opponents, except the Nazi’s government coalition partner the DNVP [German National People’s Party] whose votes were needed in order to obtain a bare working majority in the Reichstag.
The Reichstag fire of 27 February permitted the passing of the Reichstag Fire Decree and the Nazis ran a huge propaganda campaign that Communists were intent on destroying the government, that saw thousands of Communists arrested, many beaten up, and some murdered.
Hence, by the time election day arrived on 5 March 1933 [barely five weeks later] the Nazis were in total control. Throughout Germany the streets were covered in Nazi flags, swastikas, and DNVP posters. All opposition party flags and posters were banned and the SA and the police patrolled armed with rifles. On 23 March the Enabling Act was passed by both the Reichsrat and the Reichstag. The dictatorship was almost complete and would be finalised in June 1934. By the end of 1934 the entire county police, legislature, army, judiciary, and press were controlled by the Nazis.
All future resistance was undertaken under that dictatorship. I suggest you read Ulrich von Hassell’s diaries."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by seer View PostMy family is not Anglo-Saxon, Italian and Spanish...
- Were your Spanish relatives Falangists during the Spanish Civil War?
- Did your Italian relatives march with Mussolini?
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by seer View PostWe are all born with a bent towards sin, that does not mean I'm responsible for your sins, or you for mine. Not a hard concept, nor are you responsible for the sins of your ancestors.Last edited by Hypatia_Alexandria; 09-08-2020, 07:33 PM."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by seer View PostThen tell me Jim what did your ancestors do that makes you responsible? And again you made a blanket statement. That we are responsible. Who is the we Jim? That too is an absolute statement.
Interestingly Germany, the subject of another sub thread in this overall thread, did in fact take corporate responsibility for what they did to the jews in the reparations agreement between Germany and Israel signed in 1952.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repa...lic_of_GermanyLast edited by oxmixmudd; 09-08-2020, 11:22 PM.My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostNo it is not. Your contention that "Anti-semitism and blood libel existed long before Catholicism, and long before the founder of Christianity even lived" is an erroneous and inaccurate statement and nothing is going to alter that fact, irrespective of how often you insist that you are correct.
The blood libel is a later medieval conception premised on certain specific texts found in the New Testament.
Anti Jewish feeling in Egypt in the late first century CE and early first century CE [and Apion was certainly anti-Judaic] had nothing to do with the Jewish religion. The account Apion presents [and which is first recorded by Posidonius in the second century BCE] is of a blood sacrifice and ritual cannibalism, the latter calumny against the Jews would later appear in the writings of John Chrysostom [347-407 CE].
The account in Apion is not a blood libel. You quite clearly have no understanding about what you are writing but are unable [or unwilling] to acknowledge your error.
How interesting. You have just called Dan Cohn-Sherbok, who is both a Jewish academic and a Reform Rabbi, an anti-Semite. Assuming of course that you are actually referring to Dan Cohn-Sherbok whose book was the subject of my comment which elicited that reply.
However, we can never be entirely sure who or what might be the topic of your stream of conscious contributions.
Analogies have no bearing on this. We are dealing with historical facts.
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Originally posted by Gondwanaland View PostAnti-semitism and blood libel existed long before Catholicism, and long before the founder of Christianity even lived.
As for blood libel, it also, by definition, refers to a rumor Jewish people used christian children's blood in the preparation of passover bread or other rituals, which became a source of anti semitism in Europe. Since no Christian's existed prior to Christ, that term too, by definition, applies only to events after Christ.Last edited by oxmixmudd; 09-08-2020, 11:50 PM.My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostThat is a very odd response to my post. I'm talking about anti-semitism within the christian church, not anywhere else. And how completely contrary to the teachings (not to mention national origin) of Christ that is. However, that source for anti-semitism (the church), by definition, could not have existed before Christ.
As for blood libel, it also, by definition, refers to a rumor Jewish people used christian children's blood in the preparation of passover bread or other rituals, which became a source of anti semitism in Europe. Since no Christian's existed prior to Christ, that term too, by definition, applies only to events after Christ.
A Blood Libel is the allegation that Jews murder non-Jews, especially Christian children, in order to obtain blood for the Passover or other rituals: most blood libels occurred close to Passover, being basically a another form of the belief that Jews had been and still were responsible for the passion and crucifixion of Jesus Christ, the divine child; a complex of deliberate lies, trumped-up accusations, and popular beliefs about the murder-lust of the Jews and their bloodthirstiness, based on the conception that Jews hate Christianity and mankind in general. It is combined with the delusion that Jews are in some way not human and must have recourse to special remedies and subterfuges to appear, at least outwardly, like other men. The blood libel led to trials and massacres of Jews in the Middle Ages and early modern times; it was revived by the Nazis. Its origin is rooted in ancient, almost primordial, concepts concerning the potency and energies of blood. In the early 2000s a controversy among scholars surrounded the argument that the blood libel began in the Middle Ages in the wake of the sacrifice of Jewish children by their parents during Crusaders raids on Jewish communities on their way to the Holy Land.
Origins
Blood sacrifices, practiced by many pagan religions, are expressly forbidden by the Torah. The law of meat-salting (meli?ah) is designed to prevent the least drop of avoidable blood remaining in food. Yet pagan incomprehension of the Jewish monotheist cult, lacking the customary images and statues, led to charges of ritual killing. At a time of tension between Hellenism and Judaism, it was alleged that the Jews would kidnap a Greek foreigner, fatten him up for a year, and then convey him to a wood, where they slew him, sacrificed his body with the customary ritual, partook of his flesh, and while immolating the Greek swore an oath of hostility to the Greeks. This was told, according to Apion, to King Antiochus Epiphanes by an intended Greek victim who had been found in the Jewish Temple being fattened by the Jews for this sacrifice and was saved by the king (Jos., Apion, 2:89–102). Some suspect that stories like this were spread intentionally as propaganda for Antiochus Epiphanes to justify his profanation of the Temple. Whatever the immediate cause, the tale is the outcome of suspicion of the Jews and incomprehension of their religion.
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostYou seem to be under the impression that all Germans were supporters of Hitler [which by definition would include Jewish Germans who voted in 1932 and 1933].
Do you now realise how ridiculous your suppositions are?
1938 German parliamentary election and referendum
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1938_G...and_referendum
https://www.sudd.ch/event.php?lang=en&id=de011938Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Gondwanaland View PostI think I'll go with the, you know, actual Jews on this one: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/blood-libel
Also, she pointed out that the term "Blood Libel" is defined as the sacrifices of christians for passover. The fact that this is an evolution of older myth of nearly the exact same type is irrelevant, "Blood Libel" only started after christ and therefore MUST be of christian origin.Last edited by CivilDiscourse; 09-09-2020, 05:57 AM.
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostWhat did those relatives of yours left behind in Spain and Italy get up to?
- Were your Spanish relatives Falangists during the Spanish Civil War?
- Did your Italian relatives march with Mussolini?
Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostI did not ask about A's responsibility for B's sins , I asked you to explain your understanding of "original sin".Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostI did say we seer. We are responsible, the nation, those in power created the legacy of slavery. When I say we I mean that correcting the injustice that has come from the long history of slavery and racism is on the nation that created it. Due to the elongation of the discussion, I never was able to get to the connection between personal responsibility as in my first example and corporate responsibility as exists in this case, but the responsibility is on the nation which was alive when the deeds were done and is still alive and bearing the responsibility to make things right.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Gondwanaland View PostMore gibbering nonsense to try to pretend that blood libel is not blood libel."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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