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American Christianity’s White-Supremacy Problem

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  • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    We are responsible for the legacy of what was done, the impact of it. Would you, if you learned that your grandfather had stolen the entire savings of a family, throwing them into poverty that continues to today, just sit back and do nothing to help them? If you learned that half your inheritance from your own father was in fact the product of their family's money, would you keep it for yourself and tell them, "sorry, im not responsible for the fact my grandfather stole your wealth, and that my father kept it and gave a good bit of it to me. What my family did, your loss at their doing, doesn't obligate me in the slightest to make it right. I've done nothing to you."
    That isn't my case or the case of the vast majority, my grandparents worked like dogs just to feed their families, which were quite large. None of my aunts and uncles even went to college, most of them like my mother, had to quit school at grade eight to work. We did not steal anything from anyone. I own no man anything in that regard. I am not responsible for the sins of other - period.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • Originally posted by seer View Post
      That isn't my case or the case of the vast majority, my grandparents worked like dogs just to feed their families, which were quite large. None of my aunts and uncles even went to college, most of them like my mother, had to quit school at grade eight to work. We did not steal anything from anyone. I own no man anything in that regard.
      I did not ask you if you believed that was reality for you, I asked you if that situation would obligate you. Can you please answer the question I actually asked?

      Is a person, you, me, anyone, morally responsible in the circumstance I described?
      My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

      If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

      This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

      Comment


      • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
        I did not ask you if you believed that was reality for you, I asked you if that situation would obligate you. Can you please answer the question I actually asked?

        Is a person, you, me, anyone, morally responsible in the circumstance I described?
        I'm not, I did not take anything from the black man and neither did my ancestors. So what is your point?
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • Originally posted by seer View Post
          So you are a Jewish German?
          Where I have written anything about my background?

          Originally posted by seer View Post
          Well you guys did burn the bodies of babies in ovens, so...
          What?

          The Nazis did not just cremate babies. Older children, men, and women were also murdered and their bodies incinerated.

          This is far from "going over" my head, although I suspect you have not logically thought through the accusations you are directing at me.

          Given that Sparko has German forebears and relatives, and [if I recall correctly] a German ?mother? you might care to ask him what his mother's father, great uncles, and grandfathers did during the war

          Originally posted by seer View Post
          Which were few and far in between,
          There were thousands of Germans who opposed Hitler in various ways and also protected and helped save Jews. Many of those Germans were also murdered by the Nazis.

          Originally posted by seer View Post
          I do remember a story about a particular brave young lady.
          Are you thinking of Sophie and Hans Scholl? They were brother and sister, both students, and members of White Rose. They were guillotined by the Nazis in 1943.

          Originally posted by seer View Post
          And you do know how strong the Abolition movement was in the US, populated mostly by Christians. John Brown himself was Baptized in my Church.
          What relevance is that?

          Are you aware that many German Christians, including members of the Bekennende Kirche [Confessing Church] were also members of the Nazi SA and that both Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Martin Niemoeller sympathised with the Third Reich’s Jewish policy?

          Originally posted by seer View Post

          Of course it is an attack
          It is to inform white Christian Americans about how white American Christianity [until very recently] was used to enforce white domination and oppress and abuse African Americans.

          Given the alarming results from recent surveys conducted among WCA the book holds up the mirror to many and will, hopefully, compel them to confront their own prejudices towards black Americans as well as various ethnic minorities.
          "It ain't necessarily so
          The things that you're liable
          To read in the Bible
          It ain't necessarily so
          ."

          Sportin' Life
          Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

          Comment


          • Originally posted by seer View Post
            That isn't my case or the case of the vast majority, my grandparents worked like dogs just to feed their families, which were quite large. None of my aunts and uncles even went to college, most of them like my mother, had to quit school at grade eight to work. We did not steal anything from anyone. I own no man anything in that regard. I am not responsible for the sins of other - period.
            Tell me do you believe in the Christian concept of original sin? If so how do you define it?
            "It ain't necessarily so
            The things that you're liable
            To read in the Bible
            It ain't necessarily so
            ."

            Sportin' Life
            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
              Where I have written anything about my background?
              Then why bring Jews who voted for Hitler up? Most people didn't know his true views in 1933.

              What?

              The Nazis did not just cremate babies. Older children, men, and women were also murdered and their bodies incinerated.

              This is far from "going over" my head, although I suspect you have not logically thought through the accusations you are directing at me.
              But that is the history of your people, own it...

              There were thousands of Germans who opposed Hitler in various ways and also protected and helped save Jews. Many of those Germans were also murdered by the Nazis.

              Are you thinking of Sophie and Hans Scholl? They were brother and sister, both students, and members of White Rose. They were guillotined by the Nazis in 1943.
              Yep that is her...

              What relevance is that?

              Are you aware that many German Christians, including members of the Bekennende Kirche [Confessing Church] were also members of the Nazi SA and that both Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Martin Niemoeller sympathised with the Third Reich’s Jewish policy?
              If you can point to the resistance in Germany as some how mitigating Nazism I can point to the Abolition movement to mitigate slavery in the US.


              It is to inform white Christian Americans about how white American Christianity [until very recently] was used to enforce white domination and oppress and abuse African Americans.

              Given the alarming results from recent surveys conducted among WCA the book holds up the mirror to many and will, hopefully, compel them to confront their own prejudices towards black Americans as well as various ethnic minorities.
              Nonsense, why don't you hold up a mirror to the Neo-Nazis in your own country and your racist past? People like you are not friends to the US, you don't have our good in mind.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • Originally posted by siam View Post
                What of American exceptionalism?...
                I do not denounce exceptionalism of any sort.

                and other articulations of supremacy such as anti-immigrant Nationalism, Christian supremacy, class/social privilege....etc?
                Articulations? You're mixing a lot of components that are not necessarily related.

                Apparently Christianity as a concept called Imago Dei which is used to construct concepts of human equality---how would a Christian use this to create an ethical principle that can address all forms of supremacy?
                Christ is Supreme.

                it may be....
                ---the Catholic Church made a document called the Nostra Aetate around the 1960---the result was the affirmation of non-Christian worship of God....(including the special status of the Jews)
                Catechism of the Catholic Church
                841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

                842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:
                All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city.


                Nevertheless CCC 845 re-affirms that "there is no salvation outside the church"
                though a caveat is added in ...ccc 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
                https://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_c...m/p123a9p3.htm

                Would Non-Catholic Christians agree with these sentiments?...and if so---how would such ideas help alleviate or temper general human inclinations towards supremacy?
                Not being a Catholic, I'll leave their doctrines and defenses of their doctrines to them.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  Superficial, and very very late. Apologies today do not address the reality the extreme racist America throughout history and today
                  NO apology would be acceptable to an anti-Christian bigot. And, oh, aren't you so VERY righteous!
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                    Tell me do you believe in the Christian concept of original sin? If so how do you define it?
                    We are all born with a bent towards sin, that does not mean I'm responsible for your sins, or you for mine. Not a hard concept, nor are you responsible for the sins of your ancestors.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by seer View Post
                      I'm not, I did not take anything from the black man and neither did my ancestors. So what is your point?
                      First, you are still not answering the actual question I posed. The question is not whether you are actually obligated in a way that is the analogue of my question. The question is whether a person that actually was in such a situation would be obligated.

                      So, a more important question than what is my point is why can't you just answer my original question?

                      But if/when you answer my original question, then I will tell you the point of asking it.
                      Last edited by oxmixmudd; 09-08-2020, 09:09 AM.
                      My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                      If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                      This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seer View Post
                        We are all born with a bent towards sin, that does not mean I'm responsible for your sins, or you for mine. Not a hard concept, nor are you responsible for the sins of your ancestors.
                        I think we have already established in your protests related to my inherited wealth scenario there are indeed situations where we are morally obligated for the sins of our ancestors.
                        Last edited by oxmixmudd; 09-08-2020, 09:14 AM.
                        My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                        If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                        This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by seer View Post
                          We are all born with a bent towards sin, that does not mean I'm responsible for your sins, or you for mine. Not a hard concept, nor are you responsible for the sins of your ancestors.
                          There is a concept both in morality and philosophy called "fair reckoning" that acknowledges that "the passing of time" dilutes the responsibility for what is known as "ancestral fault".
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                            I think we have already established in your protests related to my inherited wealth scenario there are indeed situations where we are morally obligated for the sins of our ancestors.
                            But they were NOT my ancestors! As a matter of fact all my people landed here in the Northeast in the late 1890s where there was very little if any slavery, even when slavery was legal.
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                              First, you are still not answering the actual question I posed. The question is not whether you are actually obligated in a way that is the analogue of my question. The question is whether a person that actually was in such a situation would be obligated.

                              So, a more important question than what is my point is why can't you just answer my original question?

                              But if/when you answer my original question, then I will tell you the point of asking it.
                              But your question is specific. I or my ancestors did not gain anything or steal anything. If I personally was living off stolen goods or monies you many have a case. But that is decidedly not the case.
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                                Tell me do you believe in the Christian concept of original sin? If so how do you define it?
                                I'll chime in on this, but not as a substitute for seer.

                                Original sin first doesn't exist as a term in scripture itself ( at least, not in the NASV translation ). It is a concept derived from the teaching that we have all sinned in likeness to the sin of Adam, and that the element that has produced that reality is in some way passed on to all humanity as a consquence of Adam's sin. It does take on slightly different shades of character across the various Christian schools of thought, the most extreme being the belief by some of the calvanistic persuasion that even an infant that dies without knowing Christ is judged as a consequence of that original sin element that is in them. Indeed, infant Baptism exists to ensure that the child of a Christian receives the Grace of Christ from birth, though most that practice infant baptism do not assert that an infant or very young child who dies not so baptised necessarily is judged to an eternal damnation.

                                If one does not believe Adam is a historical figure, such as believing in an evolutionary history for mankind, the mechanism for the source of original sin and its consequence may need to be understood less literally. Some abandon it, but theologically that is a problem, with the pope affirming a belief in a singular Adam irrespective of the biological history of humankind.

                                I personally believe in original sin as that which is in us that will destroy us except for the grace of God in Christ. And I believe that is universally in mankind, and that it has both an individual and a corporate manifestation. That individually, it drives us to permanent, eternal separation from God. That corporately it drives mankind to its own destruction through wars and hatred. And that in all cases the only solution is the regeneration of the soul that comes through faith in Christ in one form or another.

                                And that further, that regeneration is not evidenced by superficial declarations of creed or tribal/religious affiliation, but rather by a true change of heart and character that values and seeks after love, grace, mercy, and all good things.
                                Last edited by oxmixmudd; 09-08-2020, 09:52 AM.
                                My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                                If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                                This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                                Comment

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