American Christianity’s White-Supremacy Problem

[seer]

I have not said whether I support the voucher system seer.

The three problems I have with vouchers is that they (1) do not solve the problem for the children that still have to attend the poorer quality schools and (2) they would tend to undermine the public education system by diverting a large amount of funding from them (3) there simply are not enough high quality schools to serve the entire population so there will still be people left to attend the now even less adequately funded public system.

The benefit I see from them is it gives parents the freedom to chose the quality of the childs education regardless of their income ... assuming such resources exist in sufficient quantity. As I said above, what will happen seer is that those better schools will choose the better students with vouchers, they will reach capacity and become very profitable, but the poorer black children, the ones most vulnerable, will still be attending the now even poorer quality inner city public schools.

That doesn't follow at all. For instance Catholic Private Schools don't refuse anybody. And if vouchers are accepted more and more private schools will be created, they would flourish. No one need be left behind, right now 40% of inner city kids in my state drop out before graduation. How could it get worse under vouchers?

Poor or miss-allocated funding for public schools is probably an area we could find some agreement on. There is a lot that could be done to make schools better except for certain misguided but commonly liberal associated policies and ideas.

We can agree on that, in my state the average spent on each student in the larger cities is $16,000 a year. If you can't educate a kid for that kind of money you are doing something wrong. These schools have been failing for decades - time to try something different...

[Gondwanaland]

Studies show the disparities even when accounting for statistically higher crime rates.

https://etime2.jhuapl.edu/Timesheet/...020B19&AdjNo=0

Source: above

More than one in four people arrested for drug law violations in 2015 was black, although drug use rates do not differ substantially by race and ethnicity and drug users generally purchase drugs from people of the same race or ethnicity.15) For example, the ACLU found that blacks were 3.7 times more likely to be arrested for marijuana possession than whites in 2010, even though their rate of marijuana usage was comparable.16

© Copyright Original Source

Does this take into account that many marijuana charges are usually accessory charges discovered during an arrest for another crime? I.E. someone gets arrested for a robbery and has MJ on his person or in his car, or someone violating promotion gets scooped up with a warrant and has MJ in his possession, etc.? And thus as blacks commit more crime and have more interactions with police, then those that have drugs on them are as a matter of course going to be arrested for that along with the other crime they committed.

[oxmixmudd]

Remember Jim, the vast majority of these failing schools are in liberal cities and states. And crime was a major reason for white flight. So why on earth won't you support my generous voucher program for inner city kids?

https://newrepublic.com/article/8588...ot-racist-myth

I have not said whether I support the voucher system seer.

The three problems I have with vouchers is that they (1) do not solve the problem for the children that still have to attend the poorer quality schools and (2) they would tend to undermine the public education system by diverting a large amount of funding from them (3) there simply are not enough high quality schools to serve the entire population so there will still be people left to attend the now even less adequately funded public system.

The benefit I see from them is it gives parents the freedom to chose the quality of the childs education regardless of their income ... assuming such resources exist in sufficient quantity. As I said above, what will happen seer is that those better schools will choose the better students with vouchers, they will reach capacity and become very profitable, but the poorer black children, the ones most vulnerable, will still be attending the now even poorer quality inner city public schools.

Poor or miss-allocated funding for public schools is probably an area we could find some agreement on. There is a lot that could be done to make schools better except for certain misguided but commonly liberal associated policies and ideas.

[seanD]

I will take your word for it that is what you believe you are doing, but that is not what I see. How you can not put the Arbery case next to floyd in that list is beyond me, but AFAIK you do not even come close to representing the majority black or general academic opinion about these issues.

And I really don't are what race you are or aren't seanD. You are a very hostile and very conservative person, regardless of what your racial makeup or background is. And you seem to think that racial makeup somehow excuses you from an possible racism, systemic or otherwise. But you clearly identify with those ideas that I consider consistent with systemic racism and that have a racist bent in terms of how they deal with these issues.

I do believe that if you were less of a hostile person there might be an interesting discussion to be had wrt how you came to have the views you have, but from what I can tell, you'd as soon find some excuse to condemn me to eternity in Hell as talk to me. And so that option doesn't exist.

Yes, I get worked up because of the chaos and racial division this is causing in my country and in my own streets. And it's based on lies and misconceptions about these events whenever it involves a white cop killing of a black person. With the exception of rare occasions, it's ALWAYS misrepresented somehow. Supposedly as a man of facts that you claim to be, I can't understand why you don't care about the facts of these events the same way others here do (that you also look down on as inferior to you), and instead get swept up in the emotion and sensationalism that causes all the animosity in this country. So to me, you come across as just a phony, and very self-righteous phony at that, which irks me even more. And the fact you keep projecting your own racism onto others as you keep throwing that accusation around just makes me even more incensed. I try hard to control myself, but you make that extremely difficult.

[seer]

Studies show the disparities even when accounting for statistically higher crime rates.

https://etime2.jhuapl.edu/Timesheet/...020B19&AdjNo=0

Source: above

More than one in four people arrested for drug law violations in 2015 was black, although drug use rates do not differ substantially by race and ethnicity and drug users generally purchase drugs from people of the same race or ethnicity.15) For example, the ACLU found that blacks were 3.7 times more likely to be arrested for marijuana possession than whites in 2010, even though their rate of marijuana usage was comparable.16

© Copyright Original Source

Jim, does that take into account previous arrest records, or the severity of those previous arrests (if any)? Your link is not working for me...

[oxmixmudd]

Well that is false since the disparity is most likely due to higher crime rates in black communities.

Studies show the disparities even when accounting for statistically higher crime rates.

https://etime2.jhuapl.edu/Timesheet/...020B19&AdjNo=0

Source: above

More than one in four people arrested for drug law violations in 2015 was black, although drug use rates do not differ substantially by race and ethnicity and drug users generally purchase drugs from people of the same race or ethnicity.15) For example, the ACLU found that blacks were 3.7 times more likely to be arrested for marijuana possession than whites in 2010, even though their rate of marijuana usage was comparable.16

© Copyright Original Source

[seer]

The issue is not democrat vs republican. Nixon was a republican and set up crime enforcement paradigms that were specifically designed to control and continue to subjugate black populations.

https://eji.org/news/nixon-war-on-dr...-black-people/

And 'White flight' did not begin as a response to crime seer. It was about white people not wanting to have black children in their children's schools or living in their neighborhoods as the integration of neighborhoods and schools began. Moving out of the city meant that they had access to schools and neighborhoods that were still majority white because black populations tended to be higher in the cities.

That white flight resulted in a subsequently lower tax base which increased the overall poverty level and crime in the cities, which produced even more flight of those with money and education out of the cities themselves.

Remember Jim, the vast majority of these failing schools are in liberal cities and states. And crime was a major reason for white flight. So why on earth won't you support my generous voucher program for inner city kids?

https://newrepublic.com/article/8588...ot-racist-myth

[Gondwanaland]

like I said, you want proof as in evidence that could convict.

I gave you the evidence that forms my opinion. But we could not show this beyond reasonable doubt and prove it in a court of law. Seer asked me what I thought I thought was true, and I told you, and I told you why.

Again I asked you to provide evidence to support your assertions. Not "proof". We are not in court. But I take this response to mean you have nothing more than your feelings and no actual evidence.

[oxmixmudd]

Reading fail. I asked for evidence, not "proof".
Does not exist. When one takes into account the crime in the black community, and the subsequent amount of interactions police have as a result, white people are more likely to be shot by police than blacks, etc..
Rather it points to inadequate training on proper use of holds. That's a problem nationwide - lack of training required to become an officer. Theres zero evidence Floyd's skin color had anything to do with this. At most you could speculate the cop had a personal grudge against him from when they worked together at that night club. But again, that has little to do with race.
segregation today is by choice.
nor does it mean it did. So give us evidence, or stop making that claim.
On what balance? Show us actual evidence. Show us evidence he would have acted differently with a drugged out white dude.

like I said, you want proof as in evidence that could convict.

I gave you the evidence that forms my opinion. But we could not show this beyond reasonable doubt and prove it in a court of law. Seer asked me what I thought I thought was true, and I told him, and I told him why.

And no, I will not stop making the claim. Racism lives in our country behind people getting away with it by covering it over with euphemisms or 'alternate reasons' for their actions. I believe the policeman's actions were motivated by/patterned by racism or systemic racism, and I have told you why.

[oxmixmudd]

Well good! Then you should support my generous voucher program for inner city kids! And let's look at what caused this - like in the large cities in my state. When the leftist politicians, in large part, decided to turn a blind eye to street crime and crime in the class room you had "white flight." That destroyed the tax base.

The issue is not democrat vs republican. Nixon was a republican and set up crime enforcement paradigms that were specifically designed to control and continue to subjugate black populations.

https://eji.org/news/nixon-war-on-dr...-black-people/

And 'White flight' did not begin as a response to crime seer. It was about white people not wanting to have black children in their children's schools or living in their neighborhoods as the integration of neighborhoods and schools began. Moving out of the city meant that they had access to schools and neighborhoods that were still majority white because black populations tended to be higher in the cities.

That white flight resulted in a subsequently lower tax base which increased the overall poverty level and crime in the cities, which produced even more flight of those with money and education out of the cities themselves.

[Gondwanaland]

Proof There is no proof here, though there is for other cases that have been discussed here. But my belief is based on the following:

Reading fail. I asked for evidence, not "proof".

(1) The statistical disparity in treatment of black people by the police.

Does not exist. When one takes into account the crime in the black community, and the subsequent amount of interactions police have as a result, white people are more likely to be shot by police than blacks, etc..

(2) The length of time he held his knee on him, well past the point he was completely subdued, points to a rage and hatred far beyond anything a heightened response due to fear or adrenaline would produce.

Rather it points to inadequate training on proper use of holds. That's a problem nationwide - lack of training required to become an officer. Theres zero evidence Floyd's skin color had anything to do with this. At most you could speculate the cop had a personal grudge against him from when they worked together at that night club. But again, that has little to do with race.

(3) The highly segregated nature of Minneapolis and the long history of police aggression against the black community there

segregation today is by choice.

This could have been personal - he could have had a personal grudge against floyd. That is one of the alternative motivations proposed, but that does not not mean that personal grudge did not have a racial component.

nor does it mean it did. So give us evidence, or stop making that claim.

So on the balance, I believe this was a racially motivated act. One that would not have occured had the subject of arrest been white.

On what balance? Show us actual evidence. Show us evidence he would have acted differently with a drugged out white dude.

[seer]

Proof There is no proof here, though there is for other cases that have been discussed here. But my belief is based on the following:

(1) The statistical disparity in treatment of black people by the police.

Well that is false since the disparity is most likely due to higher crime rates in black communities.

[oxmixmudd]

Insert evidence here: _________________

Proof There is no proof here, though there is for other cases that have been discussed here. But my belief is based on the following:

(1) The statistical disparity in treatment of black people by the police.
(2) The length of time he held his knee on him, well past the point he was completely subdued, points to a rage and hatred far beyond anything a heightened response due to fear or adrenaline would produce.
(3) The highly segregated nature of Minneapolis and the long history of police aggression against the black community there

This could have been personal - he could have had a personal grudge against floyd. That is one of the alternative motivations proposed, but that does not not mean that personal grudge did not have a racial component.

So on the balance, I believe this was a racially motivated act. One that would not have occured had the subject of arrest been white.

[seer]

One example would be systems of reward wrt public schools where schools that have higher graduation rates or higher test scores receive greater funding. Because black people statistically are poorer, less educated, and live in higher crime areas, predominantly black inner city schools therefore tend to get less funding, have a lower probability of recruiting qualified and motivated teachers, and tend to give poorer quality education. Likewise the higher performing schools tend to come from richer, whiter areas of town and have no problems recruiting qualified, highly educated teachers. Since the populations of those poorer quality schools tend to be predominantly black, it tends to perpetuate poorer education in the black community and helps keep the black population less qualified for college, in turn perpetuating poverty and even crime in the black population. The current population distributions, coupled with the quality of the schools in their respective areas, coupled with the systems that determine funding and teaching populations, perpetuate, systemically, the racial divide.

Well good! Then you should support my generous voucher program for inner city kids! And let's look at what caused this - like in the large cities in my state. When the leftist politicians, in large part, decided to turn a blind eye to street crime and crime in the class room you had "white flight." That destroyed the tax base.

[Gondwanaland]

One example would be systems of reward wrt public schools where schools that have higher graduation rates or higher test scores receive greater funding. Because black people statistically are poorer, less educated, and live in higher crime areas, predominantly black inner city schools therefore tend to get less funding, have a lower probability of recruiting qualified and motivated teachers, and tend to give poorer quality education. Likewise the higher performing schools tend to come from richer, whiter areas of town and have no problems recruiting qualified, highly educated teachers. Since the populations of those poorer quality schools tend to be predominantly black, it tends to perpetuate poorer education in the black community and helps keep the black population less qualified for college, in turn perpetuating poverty and even crime in the black population. The current population distributions, coupled with the quality of the schools in their respective areas, coupled with the systems that determine funding and teaching populations, perpetuate, systemically, the racial divide. No-one involved need be overtly racist in any way. The system keeps the status quo of racially based inequities without any help at all from overtly racist white people.

Except that's not reality. We've been pumping money into them more and more over the last few decades and have not had any positive change.

Do you support School Choice/Voucher programs?