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American Christianity’s White-Supremacy Problem

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  • #31
    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Apologies were a weak attempt at apologetics, and not a meaningful response to address the subject of the thread.
    Nobody was defending or promoting racism, so there was no apologetics involved.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Ronson View Post
      Nobody was defending or promoting racism, so there was no apologetics involved.
      No defending nor promoting, but denial abounds for the history up until today. Yes, there is apologetics here in defense of Christianity, which is another issue, but related.
      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

      go with the flow the river knows . . .

      Frank

      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post
        Ummm.....Duh?

        The us is a majority christian country. It is currently 65% of the population, and was much higher not that long ago. It's no surprise that a country who was very religious when these groups formed would have that religion as part of it's beliefs. Is it any wonder that bad groups from muslim countries have an underpinning of Muslim in them?

        Take any group, harmful, peaceful, tolerant, intolerant, in the US and there is a good chance that not too long ago, it held christianity as a part of it's beliefs.
        Being a Christian believer is not the issue.

        Did you actually read the OP [and the article from which the quotes were taken]?

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
          Apologies were a weak attempt at apologetics, and not a meaningful response to address the subject of the thread.
          I am neither a racist nor a white supremacist, so I have nothing to apologize for.
          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
          Than a fool in the eyes of God


          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
            She didn't do that MM.
            Yeah, she actually did. She made sweeping accusations against white Christians and implied that therefore, anybody who is white and Christian is guilty by default. She just dressed it up with a lot of quotes and self-serving commentary, but the end result is the same: we can't refuse to accept guilt without implicating ourselves, because, as the theory goes, that just makes us part of the problem. Case in point, the OP's parting shot:

            "Certainly Jones’ new book is food for thought for any Christian who is sincerely concerned about the way the moral teachings of Jesus of Nazareth have been corrupted by white supremacy."

            In other words, if you don't accept Jones' book or dispute his conclusions then you are not "sincerely concerned about the way the moral teachings of Jesus of Nazareth have been corrupted by white supremacy." It's a textbook kafkatrap.

            Speaking personally, I am neither a racist nor a white supremacist, nobody in my immediate or extended family is a racist or a white supremacist, I've never personally known anybody who was a racist or white supremacist, and I have never attended or been a member of a church that promoted racism or white supremacy.

            So...
            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
            Than a fool in the eyes of God


            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post
              I didn't miss any point. You brought up slavery of your own volition.
              It appears you did not read the OP with full comprehension either. The title of this thread is taken from the article in the New Yorker magazine as are the various quotes in the OP, apart from those directly taken from Jones' book.

              I posted the thread of my own volition because I thought this is a very topical and interesting subject - and Jones' book is worth reading. However, I did not bring "up slavery" of my "own volition" I introduced a thread that quoted from an article that examines the history of white American Christianity and white supremacy and that topic includes the history of slavery in the USA as well as the use of Christianity to defend and reinforce inequality and white domination.

              Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post
              Not a single person alive today had anything to do with slavery in the US.
              The article is not solely about slavery, are you unable to comprehend that?

              Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post
              There ARE still people alive today that served in the Nazi regime.
              That is an entirely irrelevant topic. As I have previously pointed out to you, Nazism was not a guiding principle that underpinned German society for over two hundred years, unlike white Christianity in the USA.

              Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post
              If the former need to 'apologize' for slavery
              You seem to be fixated on slavery. I repeat the article is not solely about slavery.

              It points out that various Christians in the early 1800s supported slavery and that slavery was the reason that led to the southern Baptists splitting and creating their own denomination the Southern Baptist Convention [SBC].

              However, the full articles also points out that various northern Christians [like Finney] while opposing slavery, did not support either equality for blacks or miscegenation. And this reluctance to give black Americans equality with white Americans was to be found across the USA.

              Another section from the article reads:

              After the South’s defeat in the Civil War, Southern church leaders struggled to help their congregants make sense of their loss. The result was the religion of the Lost Cause, a mythology that ennobled the Confederacy and idealized the antebellum South as a bastion of Christian piety and morals. This fusion of religious and cultural values, delivered from the pulpit, helped to legitimize a social order that continued to subjugate Black people. Later, as evangelical Christianity, anchored in the South, grew to become the dominant expression of Christianity in America, its cultural scaffolding, rooted in white supremacy, spread as well. During the era of Jim Crow, when Southern statutes enforced the strict separation of races and restricted the rights of Black people, Northern Protestant churches remained largely segregated and muted in their criticism. Many white Christians saw segregation as simply part of God’s plan for humanity.

              Thus in the late 1950s Ross Barnett [who would go on to become the Governor of Mississippi from 1960-1964] could quite openly declare that “The Negro is different because God made him different to punish him” and that “God was the original segregationist. He made the white man white and the black man black, and he did not intend for them to mix”.

              Imagine a political candidate uttering those sentiments in public today!

              Recent surveys have found that prejudices towards African Americans, other ethnic minorities [especially Muslims], and generally negative views of black Americans are still prevalent among white Christians. Hence Jones' rather disturbing observation that "the more racist attitudes a person holds, the more likely he or she is to identify as a white Christian. ,

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by seer View Post
                So she is German? That explains a lot - projecting her own racist past on us.
                Are you in denial about white America's history of oppression towards black Americans?

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                  Yup... the opening post is nothing more than an elaborate kafkatrap, essentially asserting that white Christians are inherently guilty for no other reason than the fact that they're white and Christian, and any attempt to deny it will simply be taken as proof of guilt.
                  Did you read the OP and the article from which the quotes were taken? The point of Jones' book and the New Yorker article is that white Christianity in the USA has been entwined with white supremacy [not necessarily white supremacists]. The book also points out that while many Christians in the 1800s opposed and fought against slavery they were not prepared to give black Americans equality with white Americans. In the North churches remained largely segregated, and there were opponents to miscegenation.

                  Across America Christianity was used justify the inequality [and often oppression] of black Americans. Separate colleges had to be established for black students because white institutions would not admit them. Black students in 1957 who were legally trying to take their place at their local college in Little Rock were met with aggression and threats of violence.

                  Today surveys among white Christians find prejudices still existing towards black Americans and other racial minorities. These remain facts despite the strenuous efforts of various white Christian leaders and churches in the past forty years or so to distance themselves from the racist past of white American Christianity.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                    Yeah, she actually did. She made sweeping accusations against white Christians and implied that therefore, anybody who is white and Christian is guilty by default. She just dressed it up with a lot of quotes and self-serving commentary, but the end result is the same:
                    Good grief are some of you totally incapable of reading for comprehension?

                    "She" did not make any "sweeping accusations against white Christians and implied that therefore, anybody who is white and Christian is guilty by default". Nor did "she" dress it up with "a lot of quotes and self-serving commentary.

                    I quoted sections from an article and I gave a he link to the article so that anyone with a modicum of interest could read the full account for themselves.

                    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                    Speaking personally, I am neither a racist nor a white supremacist, nobody in my immediate or extended family is a racist or a white supremacist, I've never personally known anybody who was a racist or white supremacist, and I have never attended or been a member of a church that promoted racism or white supremacy.
                    The article is not discussing white supremacists [although they do come into it]. It is discussing underlying attitudes of superiority and white supremacy that were and still are held by many white American Christians.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                      "She" did not make any "sweeping accusations against white Christians and implied that therefore, anybody who is white and Christian is guilty by default".
                      Okay, maybe you didn't directly, but the article you cited and commented on certainly did, and then you implied that anybody who disputes the claims is not sincerely concerned about the words of Jesus Christ being corrupted.

                      And now you do it again, insisting that the book "is discussing underlying attitudes of superiority and white supremacy that were and still are held by many white American Christians". It's a sweeping accusation that no individual can defend himself against, because if we deny it, then, as the theory goes, that just proves we're just part of the problem.
                      Last edited by Mountain Man; 09-07-2020, 02:32 PM.
                      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                      Than a fool in the eyes of God


                      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Reepicheep View Post
                        The good news is that, just over three years ago, the Southern Baptist Convention voted to denounce white supremacy and the alt-right movement. Baby steps, baby steps...

                        https://www.wglt.org/post/southern-b...-past#stream/0

                        Southern Baptist Pastor Confronts His Own, Church's Racial Past
                        June 22, 2017

                        The Southern Baptist Convention, one of the largest denominations in the country, voted recently to denounce white supremacy and the alt-right movement, but not without controversy.

                        Initially, church leaders tried to table the resolution, which was proposed by a prominent African American pastor. The vote proceeded, however, following a backlash from members who condemned the alt-right movement as a "growing menace" to society and recalled the Southern Baptists' painful history of promoting and sustaining slavery.

                        "Any 'church' that cannot denounce white supremacy without hesitancy and equivocation is a dead, Jesus-denying assembly," tweeted one African American Southern Baptist minister...
                        Wait, an AFRICAN AMERICAN BAPTIST MINISTER, who is a SOUTHERN BAPTIST?!?!?!?!?

                        You mean, us WHITE SUPREMACIST Southern Baptists allowed an AFRICAN AMERICAN MINISTER to be among our ranks? And he CHOSE TO BE Southern Baptist?????
                        "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                          These remain facts despite the strenuous efforts of various white Christian leaders and churches in the past forty years or so to distance themselves from the racist past of white American Christianity.
                          I like the logic here: If we are not guilty of promoting racism and white supremacy, it is no credit to us because then we are accused of merely attempting to "distance ourselves from a racist past". "Guilty until proven innocent" seems to be the name of the game for social justice warriors. Just remember, you can never, ever be proven innocent.
                          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                          Than a fool in the eyes of God


                          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Ronson View Post
                            Oh gee! An anti-American, anti-Christian post from HA, based on "research" from the New Yorker which she accepts without question.

                            Who'd have thunk it?
                            Her intent is to clearly not only influence public opinion about the US election but sow discord among Americans based on lies about racism. If she were Russian or Chinese the word for that would be "foreign interference" on social media. I'm wondering what the difference is.
                            "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                              I like the logic here: If we are not guilty of promoting racism and white supremacy, it is no credit to us because then we are accused of merely attempting to "distance ourselves from a racist past". "Guilty until proven innocent" seems to be the name of the game for social justice warriors. Just remember, you can never, ever be proven innocent.
                              Some of us just live our lives and get along with those around us regardless of skin color.
                              "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                                Are you in denial about white America's history of oppression towards black Americans?
                                Hey we did not put millions in ovens, I bet you have Nazi party members in your past relations...
                                Last edited by seer; 09-07-2020, 03:10 PM.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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