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American Christianity’s White-Supremacy Problem

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  • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    I will take your word for it that is what you believe you are doing, but that is not what I see. How you can not put the Arbery case next to floyd in that list is beyond me, but AFAIK you do not even come close to representing the majority black or general academic opinion about these issues.

    And I really don't are what race you are or aren't seanD. You are a very hostile and very conservative person, regardless of what your racial makeup or background is. And you seem to think that racial makeup somehow excuses you from an possible racism, systemic or otherwise. But you clearly identify with those ideas that I consider consistent with systemic racism and that have a racist bent in terms of how they deal with these issues.

    I do believe that if you were less of a hostile person there might be an interesting discussion to be had wrt how you came to have the views you have, but from what I can tell, you'd as soon find some excuse to condemn me to eternity in Hell as talk to me. And so that option doesn't exist.
    Yes, I get worked up because of the chaos and racial division this is causing in my country and in my own streets. And it's based on lies and misconceptions about these events whenever it involves a white cop killing of a black person. With the exception of rare occasions, it's ALWAYS misrepresented somehow. Supposedly as a man of facts that you claim to be, I can't understand why you don't care about the facts of these events the same way others here do (that you also look down on as inferior to you), and instead get swept up in the emotion and sensationalism that causes all the animosity in this country. So to me, you come across as just a phony, and very self-righteous phony at that, which irks me even more. And the fact you keep projecting your own racism onto others as you keep throwing that accusation around just makes me even more incensed. I try hard to control myself, but you make that extremely difficult.
    Last edited by seanD; 09-14-2020, 11:23 AM.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by seer View Post
      Remember Jim, the vast majority of these failing schools are in liberal cities and states. And crime was a major reason for white flight. So why on earth won't you support my generous voucher program for inner city kids?

      https://newrepublic.com/article/8588...ot-racist-myth
      I have not said whether I support the voucher system seer.

      The three problems I have with vouchers is that they (1) do not solve the problem for the children that still have to attend the poorer quality schools and (2) they would tend to undermine the public education system by diverting a large amount of funding from them (3) there simply are not enough high quality schools to serve the entire population so there will still be people left to attend the now even less adequately funded public system.

      The benefit I see from them is it gives parents the freedom to chose the quality of the childs education regardless of their income ... assuming such resources exist in sufficient quantity. As I said above, what will happen seer is that those better schools will choose the better students with vouchers, they will reach capacity and become very profitable, but the poorer black children, the ones most vulnerable, will still be attending the now even poorer quality inner city public schools.

      Poor or miss-allocated funding for public schools is probably an area we could find some agreement on. There is a lot that could be done to make schools better except for certain misguided but commonly liberal associated policies and ideas.
      My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

      If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

      This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

      Comment


      • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
        Studies show the disparities even when accounting for statistically higher crime rates.

        https://etime2.jhuapl.edu/Timesheet/...020B19&AdjNo=0

        Source: above


        More than one in four people arrested for drug law violations in 2015 was black, although drug use rates do not differ substantially by race and ethnicity and drug users generally purchase drugs from people of the same race or ethnicity.15) For example, the ACLU found that blacks were 3.7 times more likely to be arrested for marijuana possession than whites in 2010, even though their rate of marijuana usage was comparable.16

        © Copyright Original Source

        Does this take into account that many marijuana charges are usually accessory charges discovered during an arrest for another crime? I.E. someone gets arrested for a robbery and has MJ on his person or in his car, or someone violating promotion gets scooped up with a warrant and has MJ in his possession, etc.? And thus as blacks commit more crime and have more interactions with police, then those that have drugs on them are as a matter of course going to be arrested for that along with the other crime they committed.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
          I have not said whether I support the voucher system seer.

          The three problems I have with vouchers is that they (1) do not solve the problem for the children that still have to attend the poorer quality schools and (2) they would tend to undermine the public education system by diverting a large amount of funding from them (3) there simply are not enough high quality schools to serve the entire population so there will still be people left to attend the now even less adequately funded public system.

          The benefit I see from them is it gives parents the freedom to chose the quality of the childs education regardless of their income ... assuming such resources exist in sufficient quantity. As I said above, what will happen seer is that those better schools will choose the better students with vouchers, they will reach capacity and become very profitable, but the poorer black children, the ones most vulnerable, will still be attending the now even poorer quality inner city public schools.
          That doesn't follow at all. For instance Catholic Private Schools don't refuse anybody. And if vouchers are accepted more and more private schools will be created, they would flourish. No one need be left behind, right now 40% of inner city kids in my state drop out before graduation. How could it get worse under vouchers?

          Poor or miss-allocated funding for public schools is probably an area we could find some agreement on. There is a lot that could be done to make schools better except for certain misguided but commonly liberal associated policies and ideas.
          We can agree on that, in my state the average spent on each student in the larger cities is $16,000 a year. If you can't educate a kid for that kind of money you are doing something wrong. These schools have been failing for decades - time to try something different...
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • Originally posted by seer View Post
            That doesn't follow at all. For instance Catholic Private Schools don't refuse anybody. And if vouchers are accepted more and more private schools will be created, they would flourish. No one need be left behind, right now 40% of inner city kids in my state drop out before graduation. How could it get worse under vouchers?
            Yes, private schools would flourish, but public schools would languish. And not everyone wants the only real choice for their kids education to be a catholic school (though there are a lot of people that will put their kids in a religiouly affiliated school just to protect their kids from crime, violence, and drugs). I could argue that would be good. It makes the choice the parents, not the states, and releases the state from having to limit educational opportunities based on religious sensibilities (e.g. choral music programs where the majority of the classical music performed is Christian themed and sacred). But the goal of a public system is education for ALL. And it will be hard to do that legally in a system that is privately run (and likely majority religious) but built on public funds.


            We can agree on that, in my state the average spent on each student in the larger cities is $16,000 a year. If you can't educate a kid for that kind of money you are doing something wrong. These schools have been failing for decades - time to try something different...
            Yeah - you'd think that would be enough. But in some ways it's like cafeteria food. How often is that ever really good?

            I think there are solutions. But you have to solve many of the social problems at the same time. Kids need to be safe. But what if the kids your trying to educate are gang members? They bring guns, drugs and violence to that same school. Do you refuse them an education? If you don't, how do you keep them from corrupting or terrorizing other kids in the school. That is easy with a private school - you kick them out if they act out in any way not approved. Not as easy in a public setting. And of course once they are out, they become part of that perpetuated crime and poverty.

            I don't really know what will solve the problems of culturally induced boundaries to education. How do you make a kid care about an education when everyone around him is discouraging it - like seanD mentioned. Or if they are hungry. How do you stop a kid from joining a gang and being corrupted by it when otherwise he'll likely end up in a morgue (or course, he'll likely end up there or in prison anyway). How do you keep a kids potential from being stifled by malnutrition or neglect when they are young?

            It's an ugly problem all the way around that our educators are asked to solve - many times with their hands tied behind their back.
            My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

            If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

            This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

            Comment


            • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
              Yes, private schools would flourish, but public schools would languish. And not everyone wants the only real choice for their kids education to be a catholic school (though there are a lot of people that will put their kids in a religiouly affiliated school just to protect their kids from crime, violence, and drugs). I could argue that would be good. It makes the choice the parents, not the states, and releases the state from having to limit educational opportunities based on religious sensibilities (e.g. choral music programs where the majority of the classical music performed is Christian themed and sacred). But the goal of a public system is education for ALL. And it will be hard to do that legally in a system that is privately run (and likely majority religious) but built on public funds.




              Yeah - you'd think that would be enough. But in some ways it's like cafeteria food. How often is that ever really good?

              I think there are solutions. But you have to solve many of the social problems at the same time. Kids need to be safe. But what if the kids your trying to educate are gang members? They bring guns, drugs and violence to that same school. Do you refuse them an education? If you don't, how do you keep them from corrupting or terrorizing other kids in the school. That is easy with a private school - you kick them out if they act out in any way not approved. Not as easy in a public setting. And of course once they are out, they become part of that perpetuated crime and poverty.

              I don't really know what will solve the problems of culturally induced boundaries to education. How do you make a kid care about an education when everyone around him is discouraging it - like seanD mentioned. Or if they are hungry. How do you stop a kid from joining a gang and being corrupted by it when otherwise he'll likely end up in a morgue (or course, he'll likely end up there or in prison anyway). How do you keep a kids potential from being stifled by malnutrition or neglect when they are young?

              It's an ugly problem all the way around that our educators are asked to solve - many times with their hands tied behind their back.
              I don't know where you get the idea that private school = Catholic/religious school.

              Like, off the top of my head I can count 5 private schools in a 3 mile radius from me and only one is religious.
              Last edited by Gondwanaland; 09-14-2020, 12:42 PM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                I don't really know what will solve the problems of culturally induced boundaries to education. How do you make a kid care about an education when everyone around him is discouraging it - like seanD mentioned. Or if they are hungry. How do you stop a kid from joining a gang and being corrupted by it when otherwise he'll likely end up in a morgue (or course, he'll likely end up there or in prison anyway). How do you keep a kids potential from being stifled by malnutrition or neglect when they are young?
                My opinion is that boys tend to join gangs out of fear, no strong fathers in the home to offer a sense of protection and love. The gang offers protection at least. And I don't know how you fix that.
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post
                  I don't know where you get the idea that private school = Catholic/religious school.

                  Like, off the top of my head I can count 5 private schools in a 3 mile radius from me and only one is religious.
                  I didn't. I simply went with seers observations that "Catholic schools don't refuse anyone" as an example of a private school that does not limit its enrollment based on religious (other?) parameters and then pursued the consequences of an expanding Catholic system operating on public funds.

                  Many private schools are exclusive in terms of who they will admit. Protestant schools often require some sort of 'statement of faith'. Expensive schools sometimes have fairly high academic standards for admission. If private schools are going to be 'vouchered' as a solution to failing public schools, they can only help to the extent they do not discriminate in terms of enrollment. Public schools must take anyone regardless of their mental capacity, social standing, or race. Private schools pretty much get to pick and choose who they let in the door. Vouchers will produce the equivalent of 'academic flight' to private schools. Not sure if that will translate into a racial component, but the best and the brightest students would all be vouchered into good private schools, with the so-so or special needs students, who need good teachers and opportunities, would still being taught in public schools that now have significantly fewer funds available to deal with those needs. I would also expect that with the additional funds going to private schools, teacher salaries (which wrt church run schools are often are less than in public schools) will go up, which may well draw off the best teachers from the public school system as well.
                  My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                  If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                  This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                    I didn't. I simply went with seers observations that "Catholic schools don't refuse anyone" as an example of a private school that does not limit its enrollment based on religious (other?) parameters and then pursued the consequences of an expanding Catholic system operating on public funds.

                    Many private schools are exclusive in terms of who they will admit. Protestant schools often require some sort of 'statement of faith'. Expensive schools sometimes have fairly high academic standards for admission. If private schools are going to be 'vouchered' as a solution to failing public schools, they can only help to the extent they do not discriminate in terms of enrollment. Public schools must take anyone regardless of their mental capacity, social standing, or race. Private schools pretty much get to pick and choose who they let in the door. Vouchers will produce the equivalent of 'academic flight' to private schools. Not sure if that will translate into a racial component, but the best and the brightest students would all be vouchered into good private schools, with the so-so or special needs students, who need good teachers and opportunities, would still being taught in public schools that now have significantly fewer funds available to deal with those needs. I would also expect that with the additional funds going to private schools, teacher salaries (which wrt church run schools are often are less than in public schools) will go up, which may well draw off the best teachers from the public school system as well.
                    Except actual areas with voucher systems have not experienced that and have been quite successful.

                    https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/front...ovouchers.html
                    https://www.hoover.org/research/gene...oucher-success
                    https://reason.com/2019/01/23/school...re-for-the-ri/

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post
                      As long as vouchers can be used to produce positive outcomes for all and do not undermine opportunities wrt existing schools i have no real issue with them. We definitely need new ideas because what we are doing isn't working so good.
                      My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                      If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                      This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                        As long as vouchers can be used to produce positive outcomes for all and do not undermine opportunities wrt existing schools i have no real issue with them. We definitely need new ideas because what we are doing isn't working so good.
                        You will never have a positive outcomes for all, that is la la land. But if you could get the drop out rate down to 10 or 15% that would be a serious win.
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by seanD View Post
                          I wasn't avoiding your post because I noticed this post just now. I posted on the 7th, then you responded the next day and there were like 5 thread pages in between. It's not like I can keep track of every single thread I post in, especially when the response is that late.
                          My reply was made within a matter of hours. However, this is somewhat later as I have had more pressing issues for the past day or so.

                          Originally posted by seanD View Post
                          Looking at your post #160, I don't normally respond to fragmented posts
                          My ”fragmented” post as you refer to it took your points one by one and addressed them.

                          Originally posted by seanD View Post
                          (Note these are just tidbits, as the study is extremely extensive, much too extensive for a thread like this).
                          You don’t say?

                          Originally posted by seanD View Post
                          About the gospel of Matthew

                          Craig A. Evans: Matthew's beatitudes had a stark similarity to a string of beatitudes found in a Dead Sea scroll labeled 4Q525. Jesus' Messianic claim to John the Baptist (Matthew 11:2-6; Luke 7:18-23) reflects the description found in a messianic scroll labeled 4Q521, both based on a reference to the prophet Isaiah. Jesus' instructional prayer found in Matthew (6:9-13) and Luke (11:2-4) is akin to a Jewish prayer known as the Qaddish.
                          (The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Jewishness of the Gospels, p.2)
                          And? We know the first followers of Jesus i.e. the men who knew him would have been pious Jews. There are also possibilities that this group [or members of it] may have had direct contact/connections with Qumran.

                          Originally posted by seanD View Post
                          About the gospel of John

                          James H. Charlesworth: "The Fourth Gospel is now judged to be Jewish. Most commentators now study it in terms of first-century Palestinian Jewish writings, especially the Dead Sea Scrolls." (The Bible and the Dead Sea Scrolls, p.101).

                          Martin Hengel: "As far as I can see it, the author of the Fourth Gospel, who is identified with the "old one" (ho presbyteros) of the second and third letters of John, came from the priestly aristocracy of Jerusalem." (Conflicts and challenges in early Christianity, p.4).
                          On what evidence?

                          Hengel’s entire section from which you cited one line provides no references in support of his contention. Where is the evidence that “the author of the Fourth Gospel, who is identified with the "old one" (ho presbyteros) of the second and third letters of John, came from the priestly aristocracy of Jerusalem”?

                          If Charlesworth really considers John’s gospel to be Jewish I would like to read his argument in support of his contentions. Why does this Jewish author have a Jew [Jesus] speaking to “the Jews” about “your laws”? [10.34]? Why does this Jewish author have a Jew [Jesus] accusing “the Jews” of being the children of the devil? [8.44] Why does this Jewish author have “the Jews” apparently crucifying Jesus? [19.14-16]. Why does this Jewish author have a Jew [Jesus] portrayed as Geza Vermes describes him? “This Jesus is a mysterious stranger, a celestial being in human form who has come from heaven and will return to heaven. He is almost an extra-terrestrial and alien figure and is very far removed from the prophetic "man of God" who conveys divine teachings. [See: The Changing Faces of Jesus p.24]

                          I would contend that both Charlesworth and Hengel appear to be engaging in an unwarranted degree of speculation possibly premised on their own personal religious preconceptions.

                          There is a generally accepted theory that the writer of Matthew may have been Jewish but there is no attested evidence apart from internal interpretations of the text as we now have it. Nor is there anything to support Hengel’s suggestion that ”the great majority of the New Testament authors were Jewish Christians who for the most part either came from the Palestinian homeland or had some connection to it on account of their education and the groups to which they belonged”[p.4]

                          That James VanderKam describes the gospel of Matthew in his work The Dead Sea Scrolls and the New Testament Gospels as “that most Jewish of the Synoptics” does not automatically infer that the author was unequivocally Jewish.

                          VanderKam continues in reference to Matthew’s gospel that it ends with the risen Jesus declaring to his disciples when they meet in Galilee: "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age" (28:18-20).There is no parallel to the discipling of all nations in the scrolls.

                          It is not clear whether the people of the scrolls actively recruited other Jews into their ranks; perhaps they did. But there is no indication they were eager to convey their message and way of life to non-Jews, whom they considered beyond the pale, peoples destined for divine wrath.
                          [p.119]

                          Originally posted by seanD View Post
                          About the four gospels in general.

                          Evans: "Not only is Jesus, the central figure of the Gospels, thoroughly Jewish, the Gospels themselves are Jewish to the core… The Dead Sea Scrolls have greatly added to our understanding and appreciation of the Gospels as Jewish literature. The Scrolls are Palestinian, early, written in Hebrew and Aramaic, and are unquestionably Jewish. Significant parallels between them and the Christian Gospels should go a long way in confirming the contention here that the Gospels are thoroughly Jewish, even if at points they are at variance with aspects of temple and scribal Judaism as it existed prior to 70 C.E." (The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Jewishness of the Gospels, p.2, p.3-11)
                          Again in that brief section Evans speculates. “ Significant parallels between them and the Christian Gospels should go a long way in confirming the contention here that the Gospels are thoroughly Jewish ”.

                          In my opinion Evans is eisegetically reading comparisons into the texts from Qumran and their parallels in second generation Christian writings [i.e. the gospels]. He writes of the Messiah “Works of the Messiah in the Scrolls and in the Gospels. One of the most startling parallels between the Scrolls and the Gospels is found in 4Q521. This particular Scroll fragment lends important support to the contention that Jesus did indeed understand himself in messianic terms.

                          Jesus may well have considered himself to be a Messiah, indeed it was his acclamation as such that led to his execution by Rome but he would not have considered himself a Messiah in Evans’ Christian theological belief i.e. not as a deity or part of a Trinitarian conflation.

                          Originally posted by seanD View Post
                          James D. G. Dunn: "The perspective from the 'inside' Second Temple Judaism which such terms express indicates clearly enough that in the beginning, embryonic Christianity was self-consciously Jewish in its self-designation and claims and was so perceived during that beginning period. We recall, of course, that Second Temple Judaism itself was diverse in character. The point is that in the beginning, the new movement which was embryonic Christianity was part of that diversity, wholly 'inside' the diversity of first-century Second Temple Judaism." (Beginning from Jerusalem, pp.16-17)
                          We know that the men who followed Jesus of Nazareth [or the man on whom those various gospel figures are based] would have been pious Jews. We also know that Second Temple Judaism was diverse.

                          In that extract Dunn is merely commenting upon what is already known.

                          Originally posted by seanD View Post
                          Ron H. Miller: "This follows from the simple awareness of how vitally the Hebrew Bible lives in every verse of the Christian New testament. Furthermore, any serious student of the text soon comes to realize that not one major theological concept in the gospels originates outside the Hebrew Bible. Monotheism, creation, sin, repentance, Messiah, vicarious suffering, sacrifice, commandments, God's reign, resurrection, and the final judgment at the close of human history – all of these are as Jewish as they are Christian." (The hidden Gospel of Matthew, pp.19-20)
                          I must take issue with the late Dr Miller. He states that “People read sacred texts radically different ways”.

                          These texts are ancient documents. That is all. As soon as the word “sacred” is applied then any critical and dispassionate analysis of such texts is distorted by attributing something to the text that is not there [irrespective of the pious beliefs of religious adherents].

                          Originally posted by seanD View Post
                          Joseph Fitzmyer: "The Qumran texts, fragmentary though many of them are, supply us with firsthand information about the Palestinian Jewish matrix out of which early Christianity and its canonical writings emerged. Even though most of the Greek writings of the New Testament stem from extra-Palestinian or extra-Judean proveniences, a good number of them manifest their connection with that Palestinian Jewish matrix." (The Dead Sea scrolls and Christian origins, pp.4-5)
                          Fitzmyer seems to be suggesting in that work that artisans and peasants from Galilee may well have been fluent in Koine Greek. I find that rather hard to accept.

                          Mark A Chancy writes in his work The Myth of a Gentile Galilee:

                          What about the use of Greek in Galilee? Galilee’s first-century CE epigraphic corpus is quite small. Aside from coins, we have only a handful of other Greek inscriptions, such as the tomb-robbing warning near Nazareth and the market weights from Tiberias. ….It is obvious that Greek loan-words and names (as well as occasional Latin names) were used in Galilee, and there may have been some competence in Greek for those living in border regions, those involved in trade with the coastal cities, and educated civic elites. The first-century CE epigraphic evidence by no means makes clear,however, that Greek was widely used among the Galilean masses.[p180]

                          Nor do I consider a historiographical approach that utilises the gospels and ancient traditions as evidence to be altogether reliable. Fitzmyer cites the gospel of Luke when writing about John the Baptist and refers to “an ancient tradition about John baptizing along the banks of the Jordan River points to a spot that was within walking distance of Khirbet Qumran, the Essene community site”.[p.21]

                          However, we also need to remember that all of these scholars are/were theologians and have their own preconceptions.

                          The short answer concerning the identity of the authors of both gospels is that we can never know because the names were added much later and I have yet to see any compelling evidence presented to suggest that the author of John was from a Jewish background. It could only be suggested that if he did come from a Jewish background it was from Hellenised Judaism and he was a complete renegade.

                          Furthermore, verses found in the gospels of both John and Matthew have been used by Christians from the earliest centuries as “divine” evidence by which to persecute the Jewish people.
                          "It ain't necessarily so
                          The things that you're liable
                          To read in the Bible
                          It ain't necessarily so
                          ."

                          Sportin' Life
                          Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by seer View Post
                            You will never have a positive outcomes for all, that is la la land. But if you could get the drop out rate down to 10 or 15% that would be a serious win.
                            I speaking in terms of the goal, and what would be used as a measure of success (e.g. an improvement overall wrt reaching that goal)
                            My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                            If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                            This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                              My reply was made within a matter of hours. However, this is somewhat later as I have had more pressing issues for the past day or so.

                              My ”fragmented” post as you refer to it took your points one by one and addressed them.

                              You don’t say?



                              And? We know the first followers of Jesus i.e. the men who knew him would have been pious Jews. There are also possibilities that this group [or members of it] may have had direct contact/connections with Qumran.

                              On what evidence?

                              Hengel’s entire section from which you cited one line provides no references in support of his contention. Where is the evidence that “the author of the Fourth Gospel, who is identified with the "old one" (ho presbyteros) of the second and third letters of John, came from the priestly aristocracy of Jerusalem”?

                              If Charlesworth really considers John’s gospel to be Jewish I would like to read his argument in support of his contentions. Why does this Jewish author have a Jew [Jesus] speaking to “the Jews” about “your laws”? [10.34]? Why does this Jewish author have a Jew [Jesus] accusing “the Jews” of being the children of the devil? [8.44] Why does this Jewish author have “the Jews” apparently crucifying Jesus? [19.14-16]. Why does this Jewish author have a Jew [Jesus] portrayed as Geza Vermes describes him? “This Jesus is a mysterious stranger, a celestial being in human form who has come from heaven and will return to heaven. He is almost an extra-terrestrial and alien figure and is very far removed from the prophetic "man of God" who conveys divine teachings. [See: The Changing Faces of Jesus p.24]

                              I would contend that both Charlesworth and Hengel appear to be engaging in an unwarranted degree of speculation possibly premised on their own personal religious preconceptions.

                              There is a generally accepted theory that the writer of Matthew may have been Jewish but there is no attested evidence apart from internal interpretations of the text as we now have it. Nor is there anything to support Hengel’s suggestion that ”the great majority of the New Testament authors were Jewish Christians who for the most part either came from the Palestinian homeland or had some connection to it on account of their education and the groups to which they belonged”[p.4]

                              That James VanderKam describes the gospel of Matthew in his work The Dead Sea Scrolls and the New Testament Gospels as “that most Jewish of the Synoptics” does not automatically infer that the author was unequivocally Jewish.

                              VanderKam continues in reference to Matthew’s gospel that it ends with the risen Jesus declaring to his disciples when they meet in Galilee: "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age" (28:18-20).There is no parallel to the discipling of all nations in the scrolls.

                              It is not clear whether the people of the scrolls actively recruited other Jews into their ranks; perhaps they did. But there is no indication they were eager to convey their message and way of life to non-Jews, whom they considered beyond the pale, peoples destined for divine wrath.
                              [p.119]



                              Again in that brief section Evans speculates. “ Significant parallels between them and the Christian Gospels should go a long way in confirming the contention here that the Gospels are thoroughly Jewish ”.

                              In my opinion Evans is eisegetically reading comparisons into the texts from Qumran and their parallels in second generation Christian writings [i.e. the gospels]. He writes of the Messiah “Works of the Messiah in the Scrolls and in the Gospels. One of the most startling parallels between the Scrolls and the Gospels is found in 4Q521. This particular Scroll fragment lends important support to the contention that Jesus did indeed understand himself in messianic terms.

                              Jesus may well have considered himself to be a Messiah, indeed it was his acclamation as such that led to his execution by Rome but he would not have considered himself a Messiah in Evans’ Christian theological belief i.e. not as a deity or part of a Trinitarian conflation.


                              We know that the men who followed Jesus of Nazareth [or the man on whom those various gospel figures are based] would have been pious Jews. We also know that Second Temple Judaism was diverse.

                              In that extract Dunn is merely commenting upon what is already known.


                              I must take issue with the late Dr Miller. He states that “People read sacred texts radically different ways”.

                              These texts are ancient documents. That is all. As soon as the word “sacred” is applied then any critical and dispassionate analysis of such texts is distorted by attributing something to the text that is not there [irrespective of the pious beliefs of religious adherents].


                              Fitzmyer seems to be suggesting in that work that artisans and peasants from Galilee may well have been fluent in Koine Greek. I find that rather hard to accept.

                              Mark A Chancy writes in his work The Myth of a Gentile Galilee:

                              What about the use of Greek in Galilee? Galilee’s first-century CE epigraphic corpus is quite small. Aside from coins, we have only a handful of other Greek inscriptions, such as the tomb-robbing warning near Nazareth and the market weights from Tiberias. ….It is obvious that Greek loan-words and names (as well as occasional Latin names) were used in Galilee, and there may have been some competence in Greek for those living in border regions, those involved in trade with the coastal cities, and educated civic elites. The first-century CE epigraphic evidence by no means makes clear,however, that Greek was widely used among the Galilean masses.[p180]

                              Nor do I consider a historiographical approach that utilises the gospels and ancient traditions as evidence to be altogether reliable. Fitzmyer cites the gospel of Luke when writing about John the Baptist and refers to “an ancient tradition about John baptizing along the banks of the Jordan River points to a spot that was within walking distance of Khirbet Qumran, the Essene community site”.[p.21]

                              However, we also need to remember that all of these scholars are/were theologians and have their own preconceptions.

                              The short answer concerning the identity of the authors of both gospels is that we can never know because the names were added much later and I have yet to see any compelling evidence presented to suggest that the author of John was from a Jewish background. It could only be suggested that if he did come from a Jewish background it was from Hellenised Judaism and he was a complete renegade.

                              Furthermore, verses found in the gospels of both John and Matthew have been used by Christians from the earliest centuries as “divine” evidence by which to persecute the Jewish people.
                              I'm not going to try to deal with this directly just now. There is a lot here and I'd like my points to at least come close to addressing your points effectively. But I have a question: Do you accept that Paul(formerly Saul) was in fact a Jewish rabbi that studied under a highly respected teacher of the law - traditionally Gamaliel, and do you accept that Jesus and the Disciples were in fact Jewish men and women?
                              My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                              If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                              This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                                My reply was made within a matter of hours. However, this is somewhat later as I have had more pressing issues for the past day or so.

                                My ”fragmented” post as you refer to it took your points one by one and addressed them.

                                You donÂ’t say?



                                And? We know the first followers of Jesus i.e. the men who knew him would have been pious Jews. There are also possibilities that this group [or members of it] may have had direct contact/connections with Qumran.

                                On what evidence?

                                Hengel’s entire section from which you cited one line provides no references in support of his contention. Where is the evidence that “the author of the Fourth Gospel, who is identified with the "old one" (ho presbyteros) of the second and third letters of John, came from the priestly aristocracy of Jerusalem”?

                                If Charlesworth really considers John’s gospel to be Jewish I would like to read his argument in support of his contentions. Why does this Jewish author have a Jew [Jesus] speaking to “the Jews” about “your laws”? [10.34]? Why does this Jewish author have a Jew [Jesus] accusing “the Jews” of being the children of the devil? [8.44] Why does this Jewish author have “the Jews” apparently crucifying Jesus? [19.14-16]. Why does this Jewish author have a Jew [Jesus] portrayed as Geza Vermes describes him? “This Jesus is a mysterious stranger, a celestial being in human form who has come from heaven and will return to heaven. He is almost an extra-terrestrial and alien figure and is very far removed from the prophetic "man of God" who conveys divine teachings. [See: The Changing Faces of Jesus p.24]

                                I would contend that both Charlesworth and Hengel appear to be engaging in an unwarranted degree of speculation possibly premised on their own personal religious preconceptions.

                                There is a generally accepted theory that the writer of Matthew may have been Jewish but there is no attested evidence apart from internal interpretations of the text as we now have it. Nor is there anything to support Hengel’s suggestion that ”the great majority of the New Testament authors were Jewish Christians who for the most part either came from the Palestinian homeland or had some connection to it on account of their education and the groups to which they belonged”[p.4]

                                That James VanderKam describes the gospel of Matthew in his work The Dead Sea Scrolls and the New Testament Gospels as “that most Jewish of the Synoptics” does not automatically infer that the author was unequivocally Jewish.

                                VanderKam continues in reference to MatthewÂ’s gospel that it ends with the risen Jesus declaring to his disciples when they meet in Galilee: "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age" (28:18-20).There is no parallel to the discipling of all nations in the scrolls.

                                It is not clear whether the people of the scrolls actively recruited other Jews into their ranks; perhaps they did. But there is no indication they were eager to convey their message and way of life to non-Jews, whom they considered beyond the pale, peoples destined for divine wrath.
                                [p.119]



                                Again in that brief section Evans speculates. “ Significant parallels between them and the Christian Gospels should go a long way in confirming the contention here that the Gospels are thoroughly Jewish ”.

                                In my opinion Evans is eisegetically reading comparisons into the texts from Qumran and their parallels in second generation Christian writings [i.e. the gospels]. He writes of the Messiah “Works of the Messiah in the Scrolls and in the Gospels. One of the most startling parallels between the Scrolls and the Gospels is found in 4Q521. This particular Scroll fragment lends important support to the contention that Jesus did indeed understand himself in messianic terms.”

                                Jesus may well have considered himself to be a Messiah, indeed it was his acclamation as such that led to his execution by Rome but he would not have considered himself a Messiah in EvansÂ’ Christian theological belief i.e. not as a deity or part of a Trinitarian conflation.


                                We know that the men who followed Jesus of Nazareth [or the man on whom those various gospel figures are based] would have been pious Jews. We also know that Second Temple Judaism was diverse.

                                In that extract Dunn is merely commenting upon what is already known.


                                I must take issue with the late Dr Miller. He states that “People read sacred texts radically different ways”.

                                These texts are ancient documents. That is all. As soon as the word “sacred” is applied then any critical and dispassionate analysis of such texts is distorted by attributing something to the text that is not there [irrespective of the pious beliefs of religious adherents].


                                Fitzmyer seems to be suggesting in that work that artisans and peasants from Galilee may well have been fluent in Koine Greek. I find that rather hard to accept.

                                Mark A Chancy writes in his work The Myth of a Gentile Galilee:

                                What about the use of Greek in Galilee? GalileeÂ’s first-century CE epigraphic corpus is quite small. Aside from coins, we have only a handful of other Greek inscriptions, such as the tomb-robbing warning near Nazareth and the market weights from Tiberias. Â….It is obvious that Greek loan-words and names (as well as occasional Latin names) were used in Galilee, and there may have been some competence in Greek for those living in border regions, those involved in trade with the coastal cities, and educated civic elites. The first-century CE epigraphic evidence by no means makes clear,however, that Greek was widely used among the Galilean masses.[p180]

                                Nor do I consider a historiographical approach that utilises the gospels and ancient traditions as evidence to be altogether reliable. Fitzmyer cites the gospel of Luke when writing about John the Baptist and refers to “an ancient tradition about John baptizing along the banks of the Jordan River points to a spot that was within walking distance of Khirbet Qumran, the Essene community site”.[p.21]

                                However, we also need to remember that all of these scholars are/were theologians and have their own preconceptions.

                                The short answer concerning the identity of the authors of both gospels is that we can never know because the names were added much later and I have yet to see any compelling evidence presented to suggest that the author of John was from a Jewish background. It could only be suggested that if he did come from a Jewish background it was from Hellenised Judaism and he was a complete renegade.

                                Furthermore, verses found in the gospels of both John and Matthew have been used by Christians from the earliest centuries as “divine” evidence by which to persecute the Jewish people.
                                I don't give that much weight to the analysis and opinion of some anonymous person online actually questioning the competency of men who have spent their careers examining Jewish and Greek texts. There's way too much here to address, but you pretty much lost me at that point. Jews addressing and scolding each other in the third person is nothing unusual. The Hebrew text (Old Testament) actually addresses them this way and even vilifies them with some of the most vicious accusations, even classifying them as whores. Are you going to argue the Old Testament was written by antisemites?

                                Comment

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