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American Christianity’s White-Supremacy Problem

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  • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    Racism can only exist from those in power to those subject to that power. A black man killing a white man in our country because of anger about racism is rage and revenge, not racism. Such an act can also be classified as racial prejudice if the hatred extends to all white people without regard to individual behavior. But it is not racism.
    But that is not the definition of racism, racism is when you believe a particular race is inferior or superior.

    Racism can only exist from those in power to those subject to that power.

    No it doesn't. Racism: the belief that different races possess distinct characteristics, abilities, or qualities, especially so as to distinguish them as inferior or superior to one another.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
      I believe it was.

      ETA: Specifically, I believe that if George Floyd was white, the officer would not have held his knee on him long enough to kill him. He may not have even used that method to restrain him.
      Insert evidence here: _________________

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Ronson View Post
        I am less convinced than the others here that there is no systemic racism in this country. But it would be nice if you could provide an example that I could hang my hat on. Just insisting it exists doesn't make it so.
        One example would be systems of reward wrt public schools where schools that have higher graduation rates or higher test scores receive greater funding. Because black people statistically are poorer, less educated, and live in higher crime areas, predominantly black inner city schools therefore tend to get less funding, have a lower probability of recruiting qualified and motivated teachers, and tend to give poorer quality education. Likewise the higher performing schools tend to come from richer, whiter areas of town and have no problems recruiting qualified, highly educated teachers. Since the populations of those poorer quality schools tend to be predominantly black, it tends to perpetuate poorer education in the black community and helps keep the black population less qualified for college, in turn perpetuating poverty and even crime in the black population. The current population distributions, coupled with the quality of the schools in their respective areas, coupled with the systems that determine funding and teaching populations, perpetuate, systemically, the racial divide. No-one involved need be overtly racist in any way. The system keeps the status quo of racially based inequities without any help at all from overtly racist white people.
        Last edited by oxmixmudd; 09-14-2020, 10:25 AM.
        My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

        If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

        This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

        Comment


        • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
          All your reply does is prove my point.
          Wrong.
          You try to sweep the issue under the rug
          I didnt sweep anything under the rug.
          by crying 'virtue signalling' I guess hoping you'll somehow shame me into silence, you impune my motives by declaring me 'mighty white' and claim I'm 'patronizing'. It's all just an attempt to subdue and silence the very idea something is different from how you perceive or want it to be.
          'woke' folks like you have no shame so I dont know how I'd even begin to try to shame you. I simply stated the facts of what I observe from you. You are incredibly patronizing and pushing white savior nonsense.
          There is, in our culture, a legacy from centuries if slavery and overt racism that perpetuates an unequal environment for Blacks and Whites here.
          There was many decades ago. No longer

          Recognizing that fact is neither 'virtue signalling' nor 'patronizing'. It is simply a fact.
          No it is not.
          If it were you'd be able to show actual evidence instead of spinning tales of this mystical thing.

          Proposals on how to fix it (which I've really not pursued even a little here) could indeed be patronizing, but again, I've said little to nothing about that. The idea that only white people can fix it is not something I have proposed either. What I have said is that only those in power have the capacity to change it. Well, we have both black and white people in power.
          And right there in that last sentence you demolish your own argument.

          So fixing it will likely come from a joint effort from the black and white communities and government elements. But white people are still the majority in power
          which is to be expected, statistically, as they make up the.... wait for it.... majority of the population.

          and white people are still that majority of people holding the ideas the perpetuate the inequalities,
          Nope.

          Though the rise in criminal activity and broken families in the black community is a big part of the problem,
          it certainly is, which is why BLM is nothing but a hindrance to black lives as they revel in and have as their goal to disrupt the family.

          and the fixation of a culture that accepts those elements as 'normal' is also a very big part of the problem.
          see above.

          And those elements will require massive cooperation and effort on the part of the black community itself to fix.
          correct. Which is why BLM needs to die a swift death, as does current liberal Critical Race Theory bullcrap.

          We are fast approaching a situation that is intractable. Indeed, in each of these situations I see in the response of black leaders sometimes the inability to accept the responsibility that goes with the crimes that precipitated the fatal action by the police. That is the 'other side of it', and its a side of it that can't be rationally dealt with in a public setting right now, but it is a side of it that MUST be dealt with if there is to be a real solution.
          see, we can agree on some things.
          But I tend to think that can only be dealt with AFTER real trust is established. And there are just too many inequities being perpetuated by (1) policies that carry with them a legacy of slavery and whose effect is to perpetuate the divide (2) people in government or organizations like the police that are in fact overtly racist (3) people in government or organizations that are expressing racist attitudes that don't even know they are as a consequence of the ingrained elements in our culture.
          You claim this but provide no actual examples as evidence for your claims
          those element undermine any real efforts to foment real trust, or create real change.

          In the early '60's it was not uncommon for white people to say things like "I'm not racist, but these black people (or the more commonly used racist term at that time) need to ..." and what would follow would be clearly racist to any modern ear. That same thing exists today. It's more subtle, more sophisticated, but the effect is the same. But the present day comments in that ilk will sound just as racist 60 years from now as those sort of comments made in the '60s sound to us today.
          Sorry, but today is nothing remotely like the 60s. Not the attitudes, nor the policies.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
            One example would be systems of reward wrt public schools where schools that have higher graduation rates or higher test scores receive greater funding. Because black people statistically are poorer, less educated, and live in higher crime areas, predominantly black inner city schools therefore tend to get less funding, have a lower probability of recruiting qualified and motivated teachers, and tend to give poorer quality education. Likewise the higher performing schools tend to come from richer, whiter areas of town and have no problems recruiting qualified, highly educated teachers. Since the populations of those poorer quality schools tend to be predominantly black, it tends to perpetuate poorer education in the black community and helps keep the black population less qualified for college, in turn perpetuating poverty and even crime in the black population. The current population distributions, coupled with the quality of the schools in their respective areas, coupled with the systems that determine funding and teaching populations, perpetuate, systemically, the racial divide. No-one involved need be overtly racist in any way. The system keeps the status quo of racially based inequities without any help at all from overtly racist white people.
            Except that's not reality. We've been pumping money into them more and more over the last few decades and have not had any positive change.

            Do you support School Choice/Voucher programs?
            Last edited by Gondwanaland; 09-14-2020, 10:36 AM.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
              One example would be systems of reward wrt public schools where schools that have higher graduation rates or higher test scores receive greater funding. Because black people statistically are poorer, less educated, and live in higher crime areas, predominantly black inner city schools therefore tend to get less funding, have a lower probability of recruiting qualified and motivated teachers, and tend to give poorer quality education. Likewise the higher performing schools tend to come from richer, whiter areas of town and have no problems recruiting qualified, highly educated teachers. Since the populations of those poorer quality schools tend to be predominantly black, it tends to perpetuate poorer education in the black community and helps keep the black population less qualified for college, in turn perpetuating poverty and even crime in the black population. The current population distributions, coupled with the quality of the schools in their respective areas, coupled with the systems that determine funding and teaching populations, perpetuate, systemically, the racial divide.
              Well good! Then you should support my generous voucher program for inner city kids! And let's look at what caused this - like in the large cities in my state. When the leftist politicians, in large part, decided to turn a blind eye to street crime and crime in the class room you had "white flight." That destroyed the tax base.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post
                Insert evidence here: _________________
                Proof There is no proof here, though there is for other cases that have been discussed here. But my belief is based on the following:

                (1) The statistical disparity in treatment of black people by the police.
                (2) The length of time he held his knee on him, well past the point he was completely subdued, points to a rage and hatred far beyond anything a heightened response due to fear or adrenaline would produce.
                (3) The highly segregated nature of Minneapolis and the long history of police aggression against the black community there

                This could have been personal - he could have had a personal grudge against floyd. That is one of the alternative motivations proposed, but that does not not mean that personal grudge did not have a racial component.

                So on the balance, I believe this was a racially motivated act. One that would not have occured had the subject of arrest been white.
                My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                Comment


                • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                  Proof There is no proof here, though there is for other cases that have been discussed here. But my belief is based on the following:

                  (1) The statistical disparity in treatment of black people by the police.
                  Well that is false since the disparity is most likely due to higher crime rates in black communities.
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                    Proof There is no proof here, though there is for other cases that have been discussed here. But my belief is based on the following:
                    Reading fail. I asked for evidence, not "proof".
                    (1) The statistical disparity in treatment of black people by the police.
                    Does not exist. When one takes into account the crime in the black community, and the subsequent amount of interactions police have as a result, white people are more likely to be shot by police than blacks, etc..
                    (2) The length of time he held his knee on him, well past the point he was completely subdued, points to a rage and hatred far beyond anything a heightened response due to fear or adrenaline would produce.
                    Rather it points to inadequate training on proper use of holds. That's a problem nationwide - lack of training required to become an officer. Theres zero evidence Floyd's skin color had anything to do with this. At most you could speculate the cop had a personal grudge against him from when they worked together at that night club. But again, that has little to do with race.
                    (3) The highly segregated nature of Minneapolis and the long history of police aggression against the black community there
                    segregation today is by choice.
                    This could have been personal - he could have had a personal grudge against floyd. That is one of the alternative motivations proposed, but that does not not mean that personal grudge did not have a racial component.
                    nor does it mean it did. So give us evidence, or stop making that claim.
                    So on the balance, I believe this was a racially motivated act. One that would not have occured had the subject of arrest been white.
                    On what balance? Show us actual evidence. Show us evidence he would have acted differently with a drugged out white dude.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by seer View Post
                      Well good! Then you should support my generous voucher program for inner city kids! And let's look at what caused this - like in the large cities in my state. When the leftist politicians, in large part, decided to turn a blind eye to street crime and crime in the class room you had "white flight." That destroyed the tax base.
                      The issue is not democrat vs republican. Nixon was a republican and set up crime enforcement paradigms that were specifically designed to control and continue to subjugate black populations.

                      https://eji.org/news/nixon-war-on-dr...-black-people/

                      And 'White flight' did not begin as a response to crime seer. It was about white people not wanting to have black children in their children's schools or living in their neighborhoods as the integration of neighborhoods and schools began. Moving out of the city meant that they had access to schools and neighborhoods that were still majority white because black populations tended to be higher in the cities.

                      That white flight resulted in a subsequently lower tax base which increased the overall poverty level and crime in the cities, which produced even more flight of those with money and education out of the cities themselves.
                      My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                      If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                      This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post
                        Reading fail. I asked for evidence, not "proof".
                        Does not exist. When one takes into account the crime in the black community, and the subsequent amount of interactions police have as a result, white people are more likely to be shot by police than blacks, etc..
                        Rather it points to inadequate training on proper use of holds. That's a problem nationwide - lack of training required to become an officer. Theres zero evidence Floyd's skin color had anything to do with this. At most you could speculate the cop had a personal grudge against him from when they worked together at that night club. But again, that has little to do with race.
                        segregation today is by choice.
                        nor does it mean it did. So give us evidence, or stop making that claim.
                        On what balance? Show us actual evidence. Show us evidence he would have acted differently with a drugged out white dude.
                        like I said, you want proof as in evidence that could convict.

                        I gave you the evidence that forms my opinion. But we could not show this beyond reasonable doubt and prove it in a court of law. Seer asked me what I thought I thought was true, and I told him, and I told him why.

                        And no, I will not stop making the claim. Racism lives in our country behind people getting away with it by covering it over with euphemisms or 'alternate reasons' for their actions. I believe the policeman's actions were motivated by/patterned by racism or systemic racism, and I have told you why.
                        Last edited by oxmixmudd; 09-14-2020, 11:03 AM.
                        My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                        If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                        This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                          like I said, you want proof as in evidence that could convict.

                          I gave you the evidence that forms my opinion. But we could not show this beyond reasonable doubt and prove it in a court of law. Seer asked me what I thought I thought was true, and I told you, and I told you why.
                          Again I asked you to provide evidence to support your assertions. Not "proof". We are not in court. But I take this response to mean you have nothing more than your feelings and no actual evidence.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                            The issue is not democrat vs republican. Nixon was a republican and set up crime enforcement paradigms that were specifically designed to control and continue to subjugate black populations.

                            https://eji.org/news/nixon-war-on-dr...-black-people/

                            And 'White flight' did not begin as a response to crime seer. It was about white people not wanting to have black children in their children's schools or living in their neighborhoods as the integration of neighborhoods and schools began. Moving out of the city meant that they had access to schools and neighborhoods that were still majority white because black populations tended to be higher in the cities.

                            That white flight resulted in a subsequently lower tax base which increased the overall poverty level and crime in the cities, which produced even more flight of those with money and education out of the cities themselves.
                            Remember Jim, the vast majority of these failing schools are in liberal cities and states. And crime was a major reason for white flight. So why on earth won't you support my generous voucher program for inner city kids?

                            https://newrepublic.com/article/8588...ot-racist-myth
                            Last edited by seer; 09-14-2020, 11:10 AM.
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by seer View Post
                              Well that is false since the disparity is most likely due to higher crime rates in black communities.
                              Studies show the disparities even when accounting for statistically higher crime rates.

                              https://etime2.jhuapl.edu/Timesheet/...020B19&AdjNo=0

                              Source: above


                              More than one in four people arrested for drug law violations in 2015 was black, although drug use rates do not differ substantially by race and ethnicity and drug users generally purchase drugs from people of the same race or ethnicity.15) For example, the ACLU found that blacks were 3.7 times more likely to be arrested for marijuana possession than whites in 2010, even though their rate of marijuana usage was comparable.16

                              © Copyright Original Source

                              My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                              If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                              This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                                Studies show the disparities even when accounting for statistically higher crime rates.

                                https://etime2.jhuapl.edu/Timesheet/...020B19&AdjNo=0

                                Source: above


                                More than one in four people arrested for drug law violations in 2015 was black, although drug use rates do not differ substantially by race and ethnicity and drug users generally purchase drugs from people of the same race or ethnicity.15) For example, the ACLU found that blacks were 3.7 times more likely to be arrested for marijuana possession than whites in 2010, even though their rate of marijuana usage was comparable.16

                                © Copyright Original Source

                                Jim, does that take into account previous arrest records, or the severity of those previous arrests (if any)? Your link is not working for me...
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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