American Christianity’s White-Supremacy Problem

[oxmixmudd]

That it was reprehensible and inexcusable.



I wonder what the mob of leftist thugs narrative is concerning the cold-blooded murder of Aaron Danielson, considering there are videos of them celebrating after it took place.

The racist narrative wrt floyd involved focussing on whatever drugs were in his system and the potential something happened off camera that might have justified, at least initially, the officers use of the knee on his neck. The focus should have been on what happened to him and the evil in what the policeman did.

The white racist narrative always searches for ways to transfer blame to the black man. That doesn't mean sometimes it's not the black man's fault, but that is what that narrative does. And it has come up in each of these killings where it was in reality irrelavent to what happened. Some of it was just people parroting the narrative from their preferred conservative news sources, esp breitbart which has a strong racist bent.

[MaxVel]

Not really. There is a racist element that degrades specifically the black population built into white american culture. The more a person embraces those elements, The more likely they are to express those thought processes. And just because you are not white does not mean you can't act in concert with those elements wrt the black population - they don't involve or require any direct hostility or hatred towards black people. The people here like yourself that categorically reject even the possibility of systimic racism will not even listen to arguments that expose it or try to define it. So you are completely blind to it and it has no difficulty finding its expression through you.

That's not true. And especially the bolded part.

Again you resort to blaming others for your own inability to present convincing arguments.

It's an easy escape route - 'The reason they don't agree with me is because they're ignorant / in denial / evil / listening to demons'** is both fallacious and shuts down your own ability to listen to other's points of view and get your own positions closer to truth.

It's no different than the fundy Christian who thinks that all atheists are consciously denying what they know deep down to be true. Or the fundy Atheist who thinks that all Christians are brainwashed and ignorant of science.

You should be better than this, especially since you hold yourself out as someone who wants to know whatever the truth is, no matter what; and as someone who is moral and qualified to guide others.


How about you start a thread on 'Systemic racism'? Present a definition, and some examples, with sources. Perhaps choose examples that don't involve current politicians and events, if possible. As the OP you can have people who troll or flame, removed from the thread. Keep your discussion to the topic, what it is, and reasons for or against it, and I think others will follow.




** I note that these are all opinions you've expressed in the past with respect to other posters here.

[seer]

The racist narrative wrt floyd involved focussing on whatever drugs were in his system and the potential something happened off camera that might have justified, at least initially, the officers use of the knee on his neck. The focus should have been on what happened to him and the evil in what the policeman did.

The white racist narrative always searches for ways to transfer blame to the black man. That doesn't mean sometimes it's not the black man's fault, but that is what that narrative does. And it has come up in each of these killings where it was in reality irrelavent to what happened. Some of it was just people parroting the narrative from their preferred conservative news sources, esp breitbart which has a strong racist bent.

Why was this event racist Jim?

[MaxVel]

The racist narrative wrt floyd involved focussing on whatever drugs were in his system and the potential something happened off camera that might have justified, at least initially, the officers use of the knee on his neck. The focus should have been on what happened to him and the evil in what the policeman did.

The white racist narrative always searches for ways to transfer blame to the black man. That doesn't mean sometimes it's not the black man's fault, but that is what that narrative does. And it has come up in each of these killings where it was in reality irrelavent to what happened. Some of it was just people parroting the narrative from their preferred conservative news sources, esp breitbart which has a strong racist bent.

If that's the case, how does one distinguish between the 'white racist narrative' - which seeks to blame the black person, and genuine inquiry into what exactly happened, and what degree of responsibility each actor played in an event?


Secondly, presumably there is also a 'black racist narrative'** that also runs in parallel in these kinds of events, which seeks to exonerate the black person of any responsibility for what happened, and blame the 'racist system', or
'racist cops', or whatever?

Thirdly, and most importantly, can't it ever both be true that a black person made some poor (or bad, or even criminal) choices and the police officers acted wrongly, or poorly, or irresponsibly? In the example of George Floyd, it seems likely that he had overdosed on fentanyl and the officers failed to act appropriately and get him help quickly enough.

[MaxVel]

Why was this event racist Jim?

I really hope the answer is not going to be some form of 'because a black person was hurt'.

[Gondwanaland]

Not really. There is a racist element that degrades specifically the black population built into white american culture.

How mighty white of you.

The more a person embraces those elements, The more likely they are to express those thought processes. And just because you are not white does not mean you can't act in concert with those elements wrt the black population - they don't involve or require any direct hostility or hatred towards black people. The people here like yourself that categorically reject even the possibility of systimic racism will not even listen to arguments that expose it or try to define it. So you are completely blind to it and it has no difficulty finding its expression through you.

No, I'm not blind to anything, son. Your fantasy simply does not exist. There is no systemic racism in the US. Hasnt been since Jim Crow. I understand you want to virtue signal and look "woke", but trying to tell people of color theres some magic systemic oppression going on when there is not, smacks of White Savior bullcrap and is incredibly patronizing. We dont want or need your help to save us from your fictional construct. If anything is keeping us down it's people like you who spread this nonsense and think we're not capable of thinking for ourselves and bringing success into our own lives.

[oxmixmudd]

That's not true. I don't "identify" as mixed race. I am. My father was black so take whatever label you want for that. I also have lived in a minority community off and on for most of my adult life, so take whatever label you want for that as well.

I take the side of facts, not BLM delusion and lies. Since I know BLM is full of lies, including and not withstanding how it came into prominence (which was based on a lie about how Mike Brown was killed), I'm cautiously objective about these racially sensitive situations. That's not what makes someone a racist. Emotion, hysteria, and projection such as what you engage in, causes division, pain, death and destruction like what we're seeing now.

As far as Floyd, that was probably the closest to it being unjust and possibly racial out of all the encounters I've seen. But lo and behold now we know from the cam footage that it was wasn't based on racism whatsoever. Floyd not only complained he couldn't breath BEFORE they dragged him out of the back of the police car and onto the ground, but that he actually requested they put him on the ground, and that he most likely OD'd. That's NOTHING like what we were led to believe prior and what caused all this chaos in the streets. However, I still think Chauvin had personal animosity against Floyd, but that's just an opinion.

See, I go with the facts, not the delusion. You go with the delusion, and that causes chaos and suffering, thus makes you an advocate of that.

I will take your word for it that is what you believe you are doing, but that is not what I see. How you can not put the Arbery case next to floyd in that list is beyond me, but AFAIK you do not even come close to representing the majority black or general academic opinion about these issues.

And I really don't are what race you are or aren't seanD. You are a very hostile and very conservative person, regardless of what your racial makeup or background is. And you seem to think that racial makeup somehow excuses you from an possible racism, systemic or otherwise. But you clearly identify with those ideas that I consider consistent with systemic racism and that have a racist bent in terms of how they deal with these issues.

I do believe that if you were less of a hostile person there might be an interesting discussion to be had wrt how you came to have the views you have, but from what I can tell, you'd as soon find some excuse to condemn me to eternity in Hell as talk to me. And so that option doesn't exist.

[seer]

I really hope the answer is not going to be some form of 'because a black person was hurt'.

If I follow that logic when two black cops shoot an unarmed white guy that must be racist too...

https://thesource.com/2020/03/02/wat...an-in-chicago/

[oxmixmudd]

How mighty white of you.

No, I'm not blind to anything, son. Your fantasy simply does not exist. There is no systemic racism in the US. Hasnt been since Jim Crow. I understand you want to virtue signal and look "woke", but trying to tell people of color theres some magic systemic oppression going on when there is not, smacks of White Savior bullcrap and is incredibly patronizing. We dont want or need your help to save us from your fictional construct. If anything is keeping us down it's people like you who spread this nonsense and think we're not capable of thinking for ourselves and bringing success into our own lives.

All your reply does is prove my point. You try to sweep the issue under the rug by crying 'virtue signalling' I guess hoping you'll somehow shame me into silence, you impune my motives by declaring me 'mighty white' and claim I'm 'patronizing'. It's all just an attempt to subdue and silence the very idea something is different from how you perceive or want it to be.

There is, in our culture, a legacy from centuries if slavery and overt racism that perpetuates an unequal environment for Blacks and Whites here. Recognizing that fact is neither 'virtue signalling' nor 'patronizing'. It is simply a fact. Proposals on how to fix it (which I've really not pursued even a little here) could indeed be patronizing, but again, I've said little to nothing about that. The idea that only white people can fix it is not something I have proposed either. What I have said is that only those in power have the capacity to change it. Well, we have both black and white people in power. So fixing it will likely come from a joint effort from the black and white communities and government elements. But white people are still the majority in power, and white people are still that majority of people holding the ideas the perpetuate the inequalities, though the rise in criminal activity and broken families in the black community is a big part of the problem, and the fixation of a culture that accepts those elements as 'normal' is also a very big part of the problem. And those elements will require massive cooperation and effort on the part of the black community itself to fix.

We are fast approaching a situation that is intractable. Indeed, in each of these situations I see in the response of black leaders sometimes the inability to accept the responsibility that goes with the crimes that precipitated the fatal action by the police. That is the 'other side of it', and its a side of it that can't be rationally dealt with in a public setting right now, but it is a side of it that MUST be dealt with if there is to be a real solution.

But I tend to think that can only be dealt with AFTER real trust is established. And there are just too many inequities being perpetuated by (1) policies that carry with them a legacy of slavery and whose effect is to perpetuate the divide (2) people in government or organizations like the police that are in fact overtly racist (3) people in government or organizations that are expressing racist attitudes that don't even know they are as a consequence of the ingrained elements in our culture. Those element undermine any real efforts to foment real trust, or create real change.

In the early '60's it was not uncommon for white people to say things like "I'm not racist, but these black people (or the more commonly used racist term at that time) need to ..." and what would follow would be clearly racist to any modern ear. That same thing exists today. It's more subtle, more sophisticated, but the effect is the same. But the present day comments in that ilk will sound just as racist 60 years from now as those sort of comments made in the '60s sound to us today.

[oxmixmudd]

Why was this event racist Jim?

You question is too imprecise to answer seer.

[seer]

You question is too imprecise to answer seer.

Was what they did to George Floyd a racist act? Did they do it because he was black?

[oxmixmudd]

If I follow that logic when two black cops shoot an unarmed white guy that must be racist too...

https://thesource.com/2020/03/02/wat...an-in-chicago/

In fairness, I did not watch videos of people being shot or abused if I can avoid it. If there is something specific you want me to note in the video, I would prefer you simply state what it is. For now I'll assume two black policeman shot a white man and that there may be language that points to racial prejudice from the officers.

Racism can only exist from those in power to those subject to that power. A black man killing a white man in our country because of anger about racism is rage and revenge, not racism. Such an act can also be classified as racial prejudice if the hatred extends to all white people without regard to individual behavior. But it is not racism.

If a slave kills his master, he is still a slave. And if a master kills his slave he is still the master. the relationship is not bi-directional. Racism is a relationship from those in power to those subject to it.

IF the black people had the power in this country and were subjecting people of the white race to abuse and inequities through their power, THEN you would have racism in the black community.

Racial prejudice is another matter. That can exist anywhere, between any two races, and for a multitude of reasons. There is a lot of racial prejudice against white people in some parts of the black community as I observe it. A lot of hatred toward the white man. But that is a hatred that comes from being subjected to racism from the white community for so long.

IF we have black policeman that hate white people out there using their power to abuse and subject white people (which of course would be illegal), then I would agree you could perhaps call THAT an instance of racism, though it is not clear it would not simply still be racially motivated prejudice and hatred, as it is not the official policy of the government or police, it is not a societal trend. White people in our society still tend to get preferential treatment by the justice system and police, regardless of the race of the officials involved.

[oxmixmudd]

Was what they did to George Floyd a racist act? Did they do it because he was black?

I believe it was.

ETA: Specifically, I believe that if George Floyd was white, the officer would not have held his knee on him long enough to kill him. He may not have even used that method to restrain him.

[Ronson]

There is, in our culture, a legacy from centuries if slavery and overt racism that perpetuates an unequal environment for Blacks and Whites here. Recognizing that fact is neither 'virtue signalling' nor 'patronizing'. It is simply a fact...

I am less convinced than the others here that there is no systemic racism in this country. But it would be nice if you could provide an example that I could hang my hat on. Just insisting it exists doesn't make it so.

[seer]

I believe it was.

Based on what facts?