American Christianity’s White-Supremacy Problem

[seer]

You are far too imprecise. The paradigm here doesn't create an ongoing permanent responsibility even if reparations have been made. In my example, if my generation paid back the stolen funds, future generations would not be liable to make additional payments if they squandered those repaid funds.

No, as I see it her stance includes the fact that they would be responsible, but is mitigated by the fact that her ancestors (unless she is over 68) did take responsibility and did attempt to make reparations. The issue here is that the US has never taken full responsibility as a nation for what it has done to its black citizens or to the Indians for that matter and has continued to perpetuate the problem in its culture to the present day.

Jim I don't know how to get this through your head - I believe in individual responsibility, period. And I am not above helping the Black population through education vouchers through two years of college, not because we collectively are responsible but simply because they need the help.

"The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."

[seer]

They had already achieved that after 1933. There were no opposition parties. Do you really believe Hitler was overseeing a democracy?

And?

As I explained in a previous reply, the German people never"gave the Nazis full control" in free and fair democratic elections.

No they did not. The German people never overwhelmingly voted for the Nazis under free and fair democratic elections. The election of March 1933 was neither democratic nor fair.

The systematic persecution of Jews began gradually. The Nuremberg Laws were not passed until 1935 by which time the country was under total Nazi dictatorship.

Nonsense, you could have voted no in 1938, and over 400,000 did. And are you saying that the majority of Germans did not support the Nazi Party? Evidence...

Edited: Now perhaps you would like to answer that question I put to you earlier.

Given the situation prevailing in Germany at the time, would you have risked your own life and that of your family in an attempt against such a regime?

Who knows, perhaps I would have supported Hitler, as you might have. If I was really opposed to the Nazis perhaps I would have left the country. And you need to answer my question: why do you keep attacking my country when your country has a legion of it own sins?

[seer]

What you are overlooking is the fact that white Christian Americans used Christianity to maintain their supremacy over black Americans and continued to segregate and oppress black Americans and deny them equality, for a century or more after the 1860s. Prejudices towards black Americans are still prevalent among many white Christian Americans today and there have been threads on this board that could be construed to hint at some of those prejudices.

And many Christians use Christianity to further the abolition moment and the civil rights movement. And there are many Neo-Nazis in your country today that are racist. So?

Indeed the reaction that this thread has generated from some Christians does suggest to me that a nerve has been touched.

It is more simple - your shameless hypocrisy...

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Nonsense, you could have voted no in 1938, and over 400,000 did. And are you saying that the majority of Germans did not support the Nazi Party? Evidence...

What other party could they vote for in 1938? Furthermore, these elections were neither fair nor democratic. Polling stations were patrolled by SS and Nazi Party officials. Voters who voted “No” to reunification could be traced by the regime. There were genuine fears of being beaten up or arrested and disappearing into camps.

Only three years earlier in the Saar referendum in 1935 [again over reunification with Germany] the local Nazi Party exerted massive intimidation and violence behind the scenes to deter the opposition from voting “No”. Social Democratic meetings were broken up by brownshirts wielding steel bars. People distributing propaganda against reunification were beaten up and even shot. Anti-fascist bars were attacked and had their windows shattered by gunfire. Through all this the local police stood by. German SS units were sent into the area to help escalate the terror, and rumours put out by the 'Yes' campaign encouraged voters to believe that the ballot would not be secret [in other words the Nazis would know how you voted].

Given what had been happening over the past two years in Germany regarding plebiscites and elections that was an entirely believable suggestion and enough to terrify many of those who were considering voting “No” into refraining.

What would you have done under those conditions when the time came to cast your vote?

Who knows, perhaps I would have supported Hitler,

I suspect you probably would have.

as you might have.

I would never have “supported” the Nazis.

If I was really opposed to the Nazis perhaps I would have left the country.

How? You would need papers and travel permissions. You would have had to apply for those. What reason[s] would you give to those Nazi officials for wanting to leave the Reich?

And you need to answer my question: why do you keep attacking my country when your country has a legion of it own sins?

I am not attacking your country. I have merely posted a thread about a book written by an American Christian and academic which details the white supremacist history of white Christian Americans and which shows that many of those prejudices towards black American are still present among today’s white American Christians.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

And many Christians use Christianity to further the abolition moment and the civil rights movement.

No one is disputing that.

However, many others did not use Christianity to further abolition, particularly the Southern Baptist Convention, which openly sided with the Confederates. Furthermore, various nineteenth century abolitionists, like Finney, opposed giving black Americans equality with whites and he would not permit black congregants to have official positions in his church.

Likewise many Christian churches and church leaders openly opposed the anti-segregation and civil rights movements of the 1950s and 1960s. Jerry Falwell's "whites only" Liberty University immediately springs to mind.

And there are many Neo-Nazis in your country today that are racist. So?

That is a complete digression and an attempt to employ the tu quoque fallacy. Firstly, we are not discussing neo-Nazis in Germany [even though they do exist]. Secondly, Nazism has not been a guiding principle that has underpinned German society for over two hundred years, unlike white Christianity in the USA.

[seer]

What other party could they vote for in 1938? Furthermore, these elections were neither fair nor democratic. Polling stations were patrolled by SS and Nazi Party officials. Voters who voted “No” to reunification could be traced by the regime. There were genuine fears of being beaten up or arrested and disappearing into camps.

Only three years earlier in the Saar referendum in 1935 [again over reunification with Germany] the local Nazi Party exerted massive intimidation and violence behind the scenes to deter the opposition from voting “No”. Social Democratic meetings were broken up by brownshirts wielding steel bars. People distributing propaganda against reunification were beaten up and even shot. Anti-fascist bars were attacked and had their windows shattered by gunfire. Through all this the local police stood by. German SS units were sent into the area to help escalate the terror, and rumours put out by the 'Yes' campaign encouraged voters to believe that the ballot would not be secret [in other words the Nazis would know how you voted].

Given what had been happening over the past two years in Germany regarding plebiscites and elections that was an entirely believable suggestion and enough to terrify many of those who were considering voting “No” into refraining.

That still does not tell me that the majority didn't support the Nazis and what they were doing.

I suspect you probably would have.

And I that suspect you would have been a guard in a woman's work camp.

I would never have “supported” the Nazis.

You have no idea, if you grew up in that era...

How? You would need papers and travel permissions. You would have had to apply for those. What reason[s] would you give to those Nazi officials for wanting to leave the Reich?

Funny, I knew people who did escape Nazi Germany, one was a Jewish Doctor and his family, through Switzerland.

I am not attacking your country. I have merely posted a thread about a book written by an American Christian and academic which details the white supremacist history of white Christian Americans and which shows that many of those prejudices towards black American are still present among today’s white American Christians.

And many of those prejudices towards Jews are still present in your country. As a matter of fact Antisemitism is on the rise in your country: https://www.dw.com/en/germany-antise...mes/a-53583839

Why not tell us all about your tainted and wicked past and present?

[seer]

No one is disputing that.

However, many others did not use Christianity to further abolition, particularly the Southern Baptist Convention, which openly sided with the Confederates. Furthermore, various nineteenth century abolitionists, like Finney, opposed giving black Americans equality with whites and he would not permit black congregants to have official positions in his church.

Likewise many Christian churches and church leaders openly opposed the anti-segregation and civil rights movements of the 1950s and 1960s. Jerry Falwell's "whites only" Liberty University immediately springs to mind.

When was Liberty University whites only? Reference please. And many abolitionist supported full rights for Blacks. You like to cherry pick to support your twisted views.

That is a complete digression and an attempt to employ the tu quoque fallacy. Firstly, we are not discussing neo-Nazis in Germany [even though they do exist]. Secondly, Nazism has not been a guiding principle that has underpinned German society for over two hundred years, unlike white Christianity in the USA.

Nonsense, you don't see us starting threads attacking your country. It is your glaring hypocrisy. And Christianity is not monolithic, never has been. Second, I can see no Biblical justification for racism, just the opposite, we are all of "one blood."

[Faber]

I remember back in 1976 when it was Lynchburg Baptist College, I and a group from my church had visited the church for a bicentennial patriotic rally. It had a name, I can't remember. But Falwell Sr. was introducing a young black couple with high ambitions in serving the Lord. It was shortly after that that we learned that this couple, while (foolishly, I admit) strolling over a railroad trestle, were unable to get out of the way of an oncoming train and were killed.

Maybe she's thinking about Bob Jones University. "If you are against segregation and against racial separation, then you are against God Almighty." -Bob Jones Sr., Easter Sunday radio broadcast, April 17, 1960.

[Gondwanaland]

I remember back in 1976 when it was Lynchburg Baptist College, I and a group from my church had visited the church for a bicentennial patriotic rally. It had a name, I can't remember. But Falwell Sr. was introducing a young black couple with high ambitions in serving the Lord. It was shortly after that that we learned that this couple, while (foolishly, I admit) strolling over a railroad trestle, were unable to get out of the way of an oncoming train and were killed.

Maybe she's thinking about Bob Jones University. "If you are against segregation and against racial separation, then you are against God Almighty." -Bob Jones Sr., Easter Sunday radio broadcast, April 17, 1960.

It appears she may be thinking of Falwell's Liberty Christian Academy (which is a separate thing and is not Liberty University though much later on it moved onto the Liberty University campus), which was segregated at its founding but integrated 2 years later.

[seer]

I remember back in 1976 when it was Lynchburg Baptist College, I and a group from my church had visited the church for a bicentennial patriotic rally. It had a name, I can't remember. But Falwell Sr. was introducing a young black couple with high ambitions in serving the Lord. It was shortly after that that we learned that this couple, while (foolishly, I admit) strolling over a railroad trestle, were unable to get out of the way of an oncoming train and were killed.

Maybe she's thinking about Bob Jones University. "If you are against segregation and against racial separation, then you are against God Almighty." -Bob Jones Sr., Easter Sunday radio broadcast, April 17, 1960.

I think Bob Jones allowed Blacks but not interracial dating...

[oxmixmudd]

I think Bob Jones allowed Blacks but not interracial dating...

eventually ... But there are worse that Bob Jones.

[seer]

eventually ... But there are worse that Bob Jones.

What is your point?

[oxmixmudd]

What is your point?

that there are worse than Bob Jones.

[seer]

that there are worse than Bob Jones.

So? Are you without sin?

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

That still does not tell me that the majority didn't support the Nazis and what they were doing.

I ask you again, who else was there on that ballot to vote for and what would you have done to resist the regime? To the second question you answered "Who knows, perhaps I would have supported Hitler." Which is tacitly and superficially what millions of Germans did.

And I that suspect you would have been a guard in a woman's work camp.

What caused that nasty little remark? Or is that the level at which you operate?

You have no idea, if you grew up in that era...

I would never have "supported" the Nazis. I may have kept my head down and my mouth shut to avoid attracting attention but I would not have supported the Party.

Funny, I knew people who did escape Nazi Germany, one was a Jewish Doctor and his family, through Switzerland.

Plenty did escape in the early months and years but you used the phrase "perhaps I would have left the country" which suggests you would have gone through official channels to do so. It should also be remembered that as the regime tightened its grip any attempt to escape carried enormous risks and would have cost the individual money.

And many of those prejudices towards Jews are still present in your country. As a matter of fact Antisemitism is on the rise in your country: https://www.dw.com/en/germany-antise...mes/a-53583839

Why not tell us all about your tainted and wicked past and present?

All this is nothing but diversionary tactics on your part in an attempt to shift the emphasis. Nazi Germany and the issues of neo-Nazis in modern Germany ignores the fact that unlike white Christianity in the USA, Nazism has not been a guiding principle that has underpinned German society for over two hundred years.