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American Christianity’s White-Supremacy Problem

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  • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    You said that after I asked the question 4 times, with the 4th time noting your multiple attempts evading the question. You make it sound like you said that before I asked the question or presented the moral example, which simply isnt true.

    My original post in this line of discussion was responding to you saying this:

    Source: seer

    .. And I am not responsible for what others did in the past, just as you are not respobsible for what your ancestors did.

    © Copyright Original Source



    That is an absolute statement that simply and clearly is not true as an absolute - as you have since my response admitted.
    Then tell me Jim what did your ancestors do that makes you responsible? And again you made a blanket statement. That we are responsible. Who is the we Jim? That too is an absolute statement.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post
      Yes, it is.
      No it is not. Your contention that "Anti-semitism and blood libel existed long before Catholicism, and long before the founder of Christianity even lived" is an erroneous and inaccurate statement and nothing is going to alter that fact, irrespective of how often you insist that you are correct.

      The blood libel is a later medieval conception premised on certain specific texts found in the New Testament.

      Anti Jewish feeling in Egypt in the late first century CE and early first century CE [and Apion was certainly anti-Judaic] had nothing to do with the Jewish religion. The account Apion presents [and which is first recorded by Posidonius in the second century BCE] is of a blood sacrifice and ritual cannibalism, the latter calumny against the Jews would later appear in the writings of John Chrysostom [347-407 CE].

      Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post
      That's nice, but does not change that it is literally blood libel.
      The account in Apion is not a blood libel. You quite clearly have no understanding about what you are writing but are unable [or unwilling] to acknowledge your error.

      Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post
      Not surprised to see you carry water for anti-semites though.
      How interesting. You have just called Dan Cohn-Sherbok, who is both a Jewish academic and a Reform Rabbi, an anti-Semite. Assuming of course that you are actually referring to Dan Cohn-Sherbok whose book was the subject of my comment which elicited that reply.

      However, we can never be entirely sure who or what might be the topic of your stream of conscious contributions.

      Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post
      That you cannot grasp the analogy indicates your lack of critical thinking abilities.
      Analogies have no bearing on this. We are dealing with historical facts.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by seer View Post
        Then why bring Jews who voted for Hitler up? Most people didn't know his true views in 1933.
        You seem to be under the impression that all Germans were supporters of Hitler [which by definition would include Jewish Germans who voted in 1932 and 1933].

        Do you now realise how ridiculous your suppositions are?

        Just to give you a very brief overview of the situation in Germany at the time. You need to remember that Germany had only become a democracy and a republic after the end of WW1 [i.e. post 1918].

        However, barely fourteen years later in 1932 German democracy was in terminal decline. The country had been devastated by economic depression and hyper inflation and the various coalition governments that had been formed in those years had appeared incapable of ending the misery and many ordinary Germans had lost faith in this new democratic system. By the early 1930s the army, the large landholders, and most industrial leaders wanted some form of authoritarianism, which was the system that Germany had been accustomed to under the Kaiser. As elsewhere politics in Germany had become polarised.

        The Nazi party had been gaining support from its 2.6% share of the vote in 1928 and by 1930 [only two years later] was the second largest political party in the Reichstag. It is therefore hardly surprising that the Nazis believed they were on the cusp of power following those July 1932 elections, despite the fact that the KPD [Communist Party] was also gaining support.

        By the end of July 1932 and after four elections had been held that year [two presidential, Landtag and Reichstag] the party had reached the pinnacle of its electoral success in a freely held democratic process. It had gained 37.4% of the vote which made it Germany’s largest political party at the time, but not an outright overall winner. A fifth election in November 1932 saw a drop in the Nazi vote.

        The later appointment of Hitler as Chancellor on 30 January 1933 [as part of a coalition government] followed that November election set back. It was not an outright Nazi victory. The Nazis never, under a free and democratic process, obtained overall control. They could only achieve that when all opposition had been removed.

        Originally posted by seer View Post
        But that is the history of your people, own it...
        You have already made the point that “Most people didn't know his true views in 1933”.

        After 30 January 1933 the SA unleash hitherto unprecedented levels of violence against all their opponents, except the Nazi’s government coalition partner the DNVP [German National People’s Party] whose votes were needed in order to obtain a bare working majority in the Reichstag.

        The Reichstag fire of 27 February permitted the passing of the Reichstag Fire Decree and the Nazis ran a huge propaganda campaign that Communists were intent on destroying the government, that saw thousands of Communists arrested, many beaten up, and some murdered.

        Hence, by the time election day arrived on 5 March 1933 [barely five weeks later] the Nazis were in total control. Throughout Germany the streets were covered in Nazi flags, swastikas, and DNVP posters. All opposition party flags and posters were banned and the SA and the police patrolled armed with rifles. On 23 March the Enabling Act was passed by both the Reichsrat and the Reichstag. The dictatorship was almost complete and would be finalised in June 1934. By the end of 1934 the entire county police, legislature, army, judiciary, and press were controlled by the Nazis.

        All future resistance was undertaken under that dictatorship. I suggest you read Ulrich von Hassell’s diaries.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by seer View Post
          My family is not Anglo-Saxon, Italian and Spanish...
          What did those relatives of yours left behind in Spain and Italy get up to?
          • Were your Spanish relatives Falangists during the Spanish Civil War?
          • Did your Italian relatives march with Mussolini?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by seer View Post
            We are all born with a bent towards sin, that does not mean I'm responsible for your sins, or you for mine. Not a hard concept, nor are you responsible for the sins of your ancestors.
            I did not ask about A's responsibility for B's sins , I asked you to explain your understanding of "original sin".
            Last edited by Hypatia_Alexandria; 09-08-2020, 08:33 PM.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by seer View Post
              Then tell me Jim what did your ancestors do that makes you responsible? And again you made a blanket statement. That we are responsible. Who is the we Jim? That too is an absolute statement.
              I did say we seer. We are responsible, the nation, those in power created the legacy of slavery. When I say we I mean that correcting the injustice that has come from the long history of slavery and racism is on the nation that created it. Due to the elongation of the discussion, I never was able to get to the connection between personal responsibility as in my first example and corporate responsibility as exists in this case, but the responsibility is on the nation which was alive when the deeds were done and is still alive and bearing the responsibility to make things right.

              Interestingly Germany, the subject of another sub thread in this overall thread, did in fact take corporate responsibility for what they did to the jews in the reparations agreement between Germany and Israel signed in 1952.

              https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repa...lic_of_Germany
              Last edited by oxmixmudd; 09-09-2020, 12:22 AM.
              He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

              "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                No it is not. Your contention that "Anti-semitism and blood libel existed long before Catholicism, and long before the founder of Christianity even lived" is an erroneous and inaccurate statement and nothing is going to alter that fact, irrespective of how often you insist that you are correct.

                The blood libel is a later medieval conception premised on certain specific texts found in the New Testament.

                Anti Jewish feeling in Egypt in the late first century CE and early first century CE [and Apion was certainly anti-Judaic] had nothing to do with the Jewish religion. The account Apion presents [and which is first recorded by Posidonius in the second century BCE] is of a blood sacrifice and ritual cannibalism, the latter calumny against the Jews would later appear in the writings of John Chrysostom [347-407 CE].

                The account in Apion is not a blood libel. You quite clearly have no understanding about what you are writing but are unable [or unwilling] to acknowledge your error.

                How interesting. You have just called Dan Cohn-Sherbok, who is both a Jewish academic and a Reform Rabbi, an anti-Semite. Assuming of course that you are actually referring to Dan Cohn-Sherbok whose book was the subject of my comment which elicited that reply.

                However, we can never be entirely sure who or what might be the topic of your stream of conscious contributions.

                Analogies have no bearing on this. We are dealing with historical facts.
                More gibbering nonsense to try to pretend that blood libel is not blood libel.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post
                  Anti-semitism and blood libel existed long before Catholicism, and long before the founder of Christianity even lived.
                  That is a very odd response to my post. I'm talking about anti-semitism within the christian church, not anywhere else. And how completely contrary to the teachings (not to mention national origin) of Christ that is. However, that source for anti-semitism (the church), by definition, could not have existed before Christ.

                  As for blood libel, it also, by definition, refers to a rumor Jewish people used christian children's blood in the preparation of passover bread or other rituals, which became a source of anti semitism in Europe. Since no Christian's existed prior to Christ, that term too, by definition, applies only to events after Christ.
                  Last edited by oxmixmudd; 09-09-2020, 12:50 AM.
                  He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

                  "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                    That is a very odd response to my post. I'm talking about anti-semitism within the christian church, not anywhere else. And how completely contrary to the teachings (not to mention national origin) of Christ that is. However, that source for anti-semitism (the church), by definition, could not have existed before Christ.

                    As for blood libel, it also, by definition, refers to a rumor Jewish people used christian children's blood in the preparation of passover bread or other rituals, which became a source of anti semitism in Europe. Since no Christian's existed prior to Christ, that term too, by definition, applies only to events after Christ.
                    I think I'll go with the, you know, actual Jews on this one: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/blood-libel
                    A Blood Libel is the allegation that Jews murder non-Jews, especially Christian children, in order to obtain blood for the Passover or other rituals: most blood libels occurred close to Passover, being basically a another form of the belief that Jews had been and still were responsible for the passion and crucifixion of Jesus Christ, the divine child; a complex of deliberate lies, trumped-up accusations, and popular beliefs about the murder-lust of the Jews and their bloodthirstiness, based on the conception that Jews hate Christianity and mankind in general. It is combined with the delusion that Jews are in some way not human and must have recourse to special remedies and subterfuges to appear, at least outwardly, like other men. The blood libel led to trials and massacres of Jews in the Middle Ages and early modern times; it was revived by the Nazis. Its origin is rooted in ancient, almost primordial, concepts concerning the potency and energies of blood. In the early 2000s a controversy among scholars surrounded the argument that the blood libel began in the Middle Ages in the wake of the sacrifice of Jewish children by their parents during Crusaders raids on Jewish communities on their way to the Holy Land.

                    Origins

                    Blood sacrifices, practiced by many pagan religions, are expressly forbidden by the Torah. The law of meat-salting (meli?ah) is designed to prevent the least drop of avoidable blood remaining in food. Yet pagan incomprehension of the Jewish monotheist cult, lacking the customary images and statues, led to charges of ritual killing. At a time of tension between Hellenism and Judaism, it was alleged that the Jews would kidnap a Greek foreigner, fatten him up for a year, and then convey him to a wood, where they slew him, sacrificed his body with the customary ritual, partook of his flesh, and while immolating the Greek swore an oath of hostility to the Greeks. This was told, according to Apion, to King Antiochus Epiphanes by an intended Greek victim who had been found in the Jewish Temple being fattened by the Jews for this sacrifice and was saved by the king (Jos., Apion, 2:89–102). Some suspect that stories like this were spread intentionally as propaganda for Antiochus Epiphanes to justify his profanation of the Temple. Whatever the immediate cause, the tale is the outcome of suspicion of the Jews and incomprehension of their religion.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                      You seem to be under the impression that all Germans were supporters of Hitler [which by definition would include Jewish Germans who voted in 1932 and 1933].

                      Do you now realise how ridiculous your suppositions are?
                      Yet by 1938 that Nazi party won overwhelmingly, and you all knew who the Nazis were by then. 44,451,092 voted for the Nazis to take over the Reichstag and only 443,023 were against. So I will ask again, why do you keep pointing to our sins while trying to justify yours with the above pablum?

                      1938 German parliamentary election and referendum


                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1938_G...and_referendum

                      https://www.sudd.ch/event.php?lang=en&id=de011938
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post
                        I think I'll go with the, you know, actual Jews on this one: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/blood-libel
                        Yes, but you see she specifically called out "Western" anti-semitism. Obviously, old greek anti-semitism isn't "Western" and therefore doesn't count.

                        Also, she pointed out that the term "Blood Libel" is defined as the sacrifices of christians for passover. The fact that this is an evolution of older myth of nearly the exact same type is irrelevant, "Blood Libel" only started after christ and therefore MUST be of christian origin.
                        Last edited by CivilDiscourse; 09-09-2020, 06:57 AM.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                          What did those relatives of yours left behind in Spain and Italy get up to?
                          • Were your Spanish relatives Falangists during the Spanish Civil War?
                          • Did your Italian relatives march with Mussolini?
                          I have no idea what my possible relatives did during those times, I didn't know any of them. Both sets of my grandparents came to the US between the late 1800s and around 1910.
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                            I did not ask about A's responsibility for B's sins , I asked you to explain your understanding of "original sin".
                            I told you - we are born with a bent towards sin, a predisposition to sin.
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                              I did say we seer. We are responsible, the nation, those in power created the legacy of slavery. When I say we I mean that correcting the injustice that has come from the long history of slavery and racism is on the nation that created it. Due to the elongation of the discussion, I never was able to get to the connection between personal responsibility as in my first example and corporate responsibility as exists in this case, but the responsibility is on the nation which was alive when the deeds were done and is still alive and bearing the responsibility to make things right.
                              Again, I don't believe in collective responsibility, I believe in individual responsibility. I had no hand in what was done to blacks. And it is not that I am without empathy, but I believe that education is key. These kids, for at least a generation, need to get generous vouchers to get out of these failing and dangerous schools. And I would extend those vouchers to two years of Community College or private Technical Schools after high school. Though offering this to just one race is probably unconstitutional.
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post
                                More gibbering nonsense to try to pretend that blood libel is not blood libel.
                                You are wrong in your views on this. That is a fact. The account given by Apion is not a "blood libel" and regardless of your employment of irrelevant analogies or your attempts to deride your interlocutor [myself] that fact will not change.

                                Comment

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