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  • Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
    What do you mean when you say God's goodness is self defined?
    Only that His moral character is the standard for goodness. There is no independent or competing standard for goodness.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • Originally posted by seer View Post
      Only that His moral character is the standard for goodness. There is no independent or competing standard for goodness.
      I'm not sure there's any difference then, but why phrase it this way as if God decided what morality is, rather than us simply finding him to be the highest good? Seems a strange roundabout way.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by JimL View Post
        Actually, I believe I did. In the moral sense, good is whatever behaviors are in the best interests of human society, of humanity as a whole. Or as Wm put it, whatever it is that prevents unnecessary suffering, aka evil. Nothing circular about that definition.
        Actually NO YOU DIDN'T. Why is what is in the best interest of humanity a moral good? You can't get there without begging the question.
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
          I'm not sure there's any difference then, but why phrase it this way as if God decided what morality is, rather than us simply finding him to be the highest good? Seems a strange roundabout way.
          OK, I see your point.
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • Originally posted by seer View Post
            OK, I see your point.
            It also has the advantage that you can refer to good people already know and remind them that those are reflections of God. There is goodness in those things, and in that way they already know something of what God is. It's a wonderful evangelical approach that I've used often. It also turns ordinary recognition of beauty or truth no matter how slight into devotion of God.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
              It also has the advantage that you can refer to good people already know and remind them that those are reflections of God. There is goodness in those things, and in that way they already know something of what God is. It's a wonderful evangelical approach that I've used often. It also turns ordinary recognition of beauty or truth no matter how slight into devotion of God.
              I agree with that 100%, we all bear the image of God, along with His laws being written on their hearts.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                Actually NO YOU DIDN'T. Why is what is in the best interest of humanity a moral good? You can't get there without begging the question.
                Because the best interests of human beings living together is what morality pertains to regardless of the existence of a source. To argue that it is morally wrong to murder or rob someone without a reasoned basis for that argument is circular. Simply because a god says it's not "good" is not a reason based argument for morality, it's circular.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by seer View Post
                  Yes, but even if hell is eternal, that is not an evil - it is justice. Unless you can make the case, logically, that all suffering is evil. Good luck.
                  Interestingly low standard for justice. Many Christians believe you will spend an eternity in Hell if you don't believe in Jesus. That - in their interpretation - includes the children who were tortured and died in the concentration camps. You are now talking along the lines of calling their even worse suffering just? Or what exactly are you trying to talk yourself out of, seer? And you would not want your children suffering forever. But yet, we are supposed to believe a perfect being would want the human beings he created to suffer forever? Good luck explaining that. As to whether all suffering is evil... This thread is comming to the breaking point with all sorts of bad excuses as to why your "almighty" good who is supposed to be perfectly good is allowing it. But if you hold such a low standard that Hell is not a problem, I hardly know where to start. As you go on to promote the idea your circular logic is not a problem it is not only bad morals but also bad logic you support.

                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  Sorry Charlie, you can't even define evil in a objective or universal or absolute sense. So the whole argument is moot. And the future ending of evil certainly meets the objection.
                  I knew you were going to go for the "you cannot define", "you have no standard" thing like you always do. Let's just cut it very short here, seer: You yourself acknowledge evil exists since you claim it will end. So, we are not discussing any defition, standard or whatever. We are asking you to explain why something you yourself say exists actually exists. Go on, seer, explain. Future ending is of course no explanation as to why evil exists now. That was the question you were asked, why does it exist, why is it allowed for. I can see why you would like to pretend you were asked a different question since you obviously cannot answer it. Now be honest seer and admit you have got no answer.

                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  And it is certainly logically possible that God allows temporary evil for a greater good
                  And it is certainly possible that an almighty God could achieve this greater good without allowing for the temporary evil. You believe God is almighty, right, seer?

                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  Of course Epicurus has no standard, he has no grounds to make the argument. What/who defines evil, are bad thoughts evil? Stealing a paper clip? No standard exists that is not relative or based on opinion - therefore the argument has no merit.
                  And yet you yourself admit that evil exists though you claim god is good and almighty. So, why don't you answer his question when you agree that evil exists. And when it comes to standards, you have come exactly nowhere explaining why your God, whom you claim is a self defined source of good (circular statement), is allowing for evil. Thus God, you standard, is one you cannot in anyway even start to defend. And you claim that those who point that out have no standard?
                  "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Charles View Post
                    Interestingly low standard for justice. Many Christians believe you will spend an eternity in Hell if you don't believe in Jesus. That - in their interpretation - includes the children who were tortured and died in the concentration camps. You are now talking along the lines of calling their even worse suffering just? Or what exactly are you trying to talk yourself out of, seer? And you would not want your children suffering forever. But yet, we are supposed to believe a perfect being would want the human beings he created to suffer forever? Good luck explaining that. As to whether all suffering is evil... This thread is comming to the breaking point with all sorts of bad excuses as to why your "almighty" good who is supposed to be perfectly good is allowing it. But if you hold such a low standard that Hell is not a problem, I hardly know where to start. As you go on to promote the idea your circular logic is not a problem it is not only bad morals but also bad logic you support.
                    Charles the point is even is hell if eternal you have no rational or moral grounds to object. Your idea of "bad morals" is simply nonsense (BTW I'm a Christian Annihilationist and have been for decades).



                    I knew you were going to go for the "you cannot define", "you have no standard" thing like you always do. Let's just cut it very short here, seer: You yourself acknowledge evil exists since you claim it will end. So, we are not discussing any defition, standard or whatever. We are asking you to explain why something you yourself say exists actually exists. Go on, seer, explain. Future ending is of course no explanation as to why evil exists now. That was the question you were asked, why does it exist, why is it allowed for. I can see why you would like to pretend you were asked a different question since you obviously cannot answer it. Now be honest seer and admit you have got no answer.
                    Sorry Charles, I don't have to know the reasons why God allows temporal evil to hold the logical possibly that He has good reasons. There are plenty of good resources out there for you.

                    https://www.josh.org/10-biblical-rea...ows-suffering/

                    https://www.zachariastrust.org/if-god-why-suffering

                    https://www.reasonablefaith.org/vide...am-lane-craig/


                    And it is certainly possible that an almighty God could achieve this greater good without allowing for the temporary evil. You believe God is almighty, right, seer?
                    Is it possible for free creatures to never go wrong? I don't know. Would a being who was forged through this vale of tears be of the same kind and quality of one who never was? Doubtful.


                    And yet you yourself admit that evil exists though you claim god is good and almighty. So, why don't you answer his question when you agree that evil exists. And when it comes to standards, you have come exactly nowhere explaining why your God, whom you claim is a self defined source of good (circular statement), is allowing for evil. Thus God, you standard, is one you cannot in anyway even start to defend. And you claim that those who point that out have no standard?
                    Read the links. And you can not even begin to define suffering as a moral wrong in any universal sense.
                    Last edited by seer; 08-04-2020, 11:16 AM.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                      Because the best interests of human beings living together is what morality pertains to regardless of the existence of a source. To argue that it is morally wrong to murder or rob someone without a reasoned basis for that argument is circular. Simply because a god says it's not "good" is not a reason based argument for morality, it's circular.
                      That is not what I asked Jim, why is what is in the best interest of humanity a moral good? Why is the survival of humanity a moral good?
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seer View Post
                        That is not what I asked Jim, why is what is in the best interest of humanity a moral good? Why is the survival of humanity a moral good?
                        I don't think this makes sense seer. Though I also disagree with JimL's definition. Goodness can be defined in a way where it's possible to learn objectively what it is.

                        JimL also isn't begging the question in asserting a certain system of ethics, with certain end goals, that's not what begging the question means (it isn't circular logic). Though it might be wrong or in poor evidence which is different.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                          I don't think this makes sense seer. Though I also disagree with JimL's definition. Goodness can be defined in a way where it's possible to learn objectively what it is.
                          Not sure how you do that.

                          JimL also isn't begging the question in asserting a certain system of ethics, with certain end goals, that's not what begging the question means (it isn't circular logic). Though it might be wrong or in poor evidence which is different.
                          I didn't say it was, that was not the point or the question I was asking, which was: why is what is in the best interest of humanity a moral good? Or to put it more succinctly, why is the survival of humanity a moral good? He can only answer that by either begging the question or using a circular argument.
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by seer View Post
                            That is not what I asked Jim, why is what is in the best interest of humanity a moral good? Why is the survival of humanity a moral good?
                            Have you even thought about that? Is it not in your best interests to survive, not to suffer unnecesarily, not to be robbed, etc etc? If so, then wouldn't you call those things good and their opposites evils. Morality is just the term we use to define those interests as a society whether they be good (in our intersts, or evil, opposed to our interests. In other words morality is reason based. Your argument is not, it's simply good or evil "because god says so".
                            Last edited by JimL; 08-04-2020, 03:34 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                              Have you even thought about that? Is it not in your best interests to survive, not to suffer unnecesarily, not to be robbed, etc etc? If so, then wouldn't you call those things good and their opposites evils. Morality is just the term we use to define those interests as a society whether they be good (in our intersts, or evil, opposed to our interests. In other words morality is reason based. Your argument is not, it's simply good or evil "because god says so".
                              Again Jim, I may subjectively want exist or survive but that doesn't make it a moral good. And you keep avoiding the question: Why is the survival of humanity a moral good? Your only possible answer is because we say so or you say so, just what you accuse God of.
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                                Not sure how you do that.
                                Figure out what we are oriented towards in the traditional sense of Scholastic philosophy. This is the whole basis for virtue ethics: We can figure out what the natural ends of man are simply by studying ourselves.

                                I didn't say it was, that was not the point or the question I was asking, which was: why is what is in the best interest of humanity a moral good? Or to put it more succinctly, why is the survival of humanity a moral good? He can only answer that by either begging the question or using a circular argument.
                                He isn't actually using circular logic nor begging the question, but I don't think he's providing good answers either.

                                I answer that it is good to survive, because humans are oriented towards staying alive. Being alive is our natural state. It is really that simple. In fact I'd consider it so obvious that it is up to you seer to provide good reasons why should doubt it. That the conclusion is based on human observations and reasons, which might be wrong, is not enough of an argument. Calling it merely a subjective opinoin is also doesn't work as a response, I am talking here of objective features of humanity. They're easily studied, easily verified and there's nothing controversial about this. Furthermore for humans there is even greater reasons to stay alive than for animals (who also mostly try to avoid death). Our minds are oriented towards seeking truth and finding meaning. If a human dies, then this will private the possibility of that and prevent a human from acquiring its good.

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