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Integrating Socialist ideas has worked well in the West

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  • #46
    Originally posted by JimL View Post
    What do you call that?
    Free. Bigly free. Come on in and get it free.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Watermelon View Post
      But buying and selling doesn’t make it capitalist or socialist, ownership does.
      Of course ownership is part of it, but I was speaking to Star's cooperative company (which would be owned by the workers) and the fee market principles they would use. And again, the fact that social programs live off of the capitalist system.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by CMD View Post
        That's only true if you're talking about an emergency room visit with something that needs immediate attention. It doesn't apply in a whole heck of a lot situations, however.

        The whole "free" thing comes with some caveats. I had to go to the emergency room once when I was a teenager, we were dirt poor so never could pay for it (so I ended up getting it for "free")... she got calls from the hospital demanding payment for awhile and eventually they turned her over to collections and the whole thing completely wrecked her credit for years. It wasn't just "hey, you can't pay, no problem, free no-strings-attached treatment for you!"

        And this whole idea that wait times are only a thing in socialist countries and in America it's all just right away is just flat out wrong. My last two doctor visits I had to wait over a month for an appointment, same with my sister's last couple of visits (different place/doctor). My mother needed to get a colonoscopy as she had signs of colon cancer, she had to wait over 2 months and despite being poor as heck, she could only get a small bit of financial help (and 5 or so months later she's still waiting for some of that help to actually kick in; she just got a bill for something that was supposed to waived, blood work I believe). So now she's got even more credit card debt and she's been turned over to collections again, so bye-bye credit score.
        Sounds like you should move to New Zealand or Europe. They say their healthcare is free free, rather than just free.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Maranatha View Post
          Sounds like you should move to New Zealand or Europe. They say their healthcare is free free, rather than just free.
          That would be great. When my mother went in for the colonoscopy, they had to remove a number of pre-cancerous growths. She's already showing symptoms of things going right back to normal so she probably needs to go in again some time soon, but won't be able to because there's no way to afford it. So she basically has to wait until things get so bad that she can finally justify going to the emergency room, which by then will likely be too late. This is all in addition to a number of other health issues that have remained unattended to because of cost. She was told over a decade ago that in the near future she'd likely need a pace maker, and she has a number of symptoms indicative of heart issues, but until she basically has a heart-attack and is knocking on deaths door, there's no money to deal with any of that.

          She's not the only one, either. Without going into too many details, my sister suffers from some severe anxiety issues, like "without a ton of help she can't make it in this world" type levels of problems. We've looked into all the government/private options available. The most you can get around that doesn't cost $70 an hour at a bare minimum is free counseling; like, not a psychiatrist or psychologist or other medical professional who can actually provide medication and real treatments, but someone who can basically listen to you speak and tell you about some breathing techniques. Otherwise, everything else is either expensive as heck or geared towards those with extreme mental retardation or the like.

          She could go for SSI, but anxiety disorders are especially hard to get SSI for. Realistically, what would happen is, she'd have to apply, wait months to be denied, request a re-evaluation, wait another few months to be denied again, then have to hire a disability specialist and take it to court (the court date of which could be months or even a year out) and she'd likely lose in the end anyway. During that time she'd also have to pay a butt-load to see several specialists in order to gather supporting evidence.

          In somewhere like New Zealand, none of this (and more I haven't even mentioned) would be much of an issue... but we live here in the U.S. (in the state of Idaho, filled and run by so many wonderful loving right-wing Christians), so naturally the response to all of our families problems has been, effectively: "sucks to be you, maybe you shouldn't be so poor." Truly we are the best country.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by CMD View Post
            That would be great. When my mother went in for the colonoscopy, they had to remove a number of pre-cancerous growths. She's already showing symptoms of things going right back to normal so she probably needs to go in again some time soon, but won't be able to because there's no way to afford it. So she basically has to wait until things get so bad that she can finally justify going to the emergency room, which by then will likely be too late. This is all in addition to a number of other health issues that have remained unattended to because of cost. She was told over a decade ago that in the near future she'd likely need a pace maker, and she has a number of symptoms indicative of heart issues, but until she basically has a heart-attack and is knocking on deaths door, there's no money to deal with any of that.

            She's not the only one, either. Without going into too many details, my sister suffers from some severe anxiety issues, like "without a ton of help she can't make it in this world" type levels of problems. We've looked into all the government/private options available. The most you can get around that doesn't cost $70 an hour at a bare minimum is free counseling; like, not a psychiatrist or psychologist or other medical professional who can actually provide medication and real treatments, but someone who can basically listen to you speak and tell you about some breathing techniques. Otherwise, everything else is either expensive as heck or geared towards those with extreme mental retardation or the like.

            She could go for SSI, but anxiety disorders are especially hard to get SSI for. Realistically, what would happen is, she'd have to apply, wait months to be denied, request a re-evaluation, wait another few months to be denied again, then have to hire a disability specialist and take it to court (the court date of which could be months or even a year out) and she'd likely lose in the end anyway. During that time she'd also have to pay a butt-load to see several specialists in order to gather supporting evidence.

            In somewhere like New Zealand, none of this (and more I haven't even mentioned) would be much of an issue... but we live here in the U.S. (in the state of Idaho, filled and run by so many wonderful loving right-wing Christians), so naturally the response to all of our families problems has been, effectively: "sucks to be you, maybe you shouldn't be so poor." Truly we are the best country.
            Have you guys thought about healthcare sharing companies?
            That's what
            - She

            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
            - Stephen R. Donaldson

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by CMD View Post
              That would be great. When my mother went in for the colonoscopy, they had to remove a number of pre-cancerous growths. She's already showing symptoms of things going right back to normal so she probably needs to go in again some time soon, but won't be able to because there's no way to afford it. So she basically has to wait until things get so bad that she can finally justify going to the emergency room, which by then will likely be too late. This is all in addition to a number of other health issues that have remained unattended to because of cost. She was told over a decade ago that in the near future she'd likely need a pace maker, and she has a number of symptoms indicative of heart issues, but until she basically has a heart-attack and is knocking on deaths door, there's no money to deal with any of that.

              She's not the only one, either. Without going into too many details, my sister suffers from some severe anxiety issues, like "without a ton of help she can't make it in this world" type levels of problems. We've looked into all the government/private options available. The most you can get around that doesn't cost $70 an hour at a bare minimum is free counseling; like, not a psychiatrist or psychologist or other medical professional who can actually provide medication and real treatments, but someone who can basically listen to you speak and tell you about some breathing techniques. Otherwise, everything else is either expensive as heck or geared towards those with extreme mental retardation or the like.

              She could go for SSI, but anxiety disorders are especially hard to get SSI for. Realistically, what would happen is, she'd have to apply, wait months to be denied, request a re-evaluation, wait another few months to be denied again, then have to hire a disability specialist and take it to court (the court date of which could be months or even a year out) and she'd likely lose in the end anyway. During that time she'd also have to pay a butt-load to see several specialists in order to gather supporting evidence.

              In somewhere like New Zealand, none of this (and more I haven't even mentioned) would be much of an issue... but we live here in the U.S. (in the state of Idaho, filled and run by so many wonderful loving right-wing Christians), so naturally the response to all of our families problems has been, effectively: "sucks to be you, maybe you shouldn't be so poor." Truly we are the best country.
              My mother got colon cancer, got surgery, and died anyway. People die.

              I've been bankrupted over my wife's disability, and put in the medical spin cycle of drugs and doctors. Decades of it.
              She is now free of doctors and their non help, and their drugs. She has found natural remedies for pain. We all have our own experiences.

              If you do move to a tiny country like NZ with less than 5 million inhabitants, many rich, then I am sure things would go better for your medical costs. Who can say what other costs it will cost you, but you can move to somewhere like New Zealand. Although I did hear they are cracking down on the number of immigrants they allow in. Apparently, too many people may spoil the good times of free medical care?

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by CMD View Post
                In somewhere like New Zealand, none of this (and more I haven't even mentioned) would be much of an issue... but we live here in the U.S. (in the state of Idaho, filled and run by so many wonderful loving right-wing Christians), so naturally the response to all of our families problems has been, effectively: "sucks to be you, maybe you shouldn't be so poor." Truly we are the best country.
                It does baffle me why you all haven't moved to Canada already.


                Originally posted by Maranatha View Post
                I've been bankrupted over my wife's disability, and put in the medical spin cycle of drugs and doctors.
                It still amazes me, when I think about it, that bankruptcies caused by medical care are a thing in the US. And not just a thing, I've read it's the most common cause of bankruptcy in the US.

                If you do move to a tiny country like NZ with less than 5 million inhabitants, many rich
                I'm not quite sure what the "many rich" part is supposed to be implying. NZ isn't overall a particularly rich country - it sits pretty much on the OECD average in terms of wealth and income. Probably the single biggest criticism of NZ tends to be that it's not very rich and that living costs are very high. Obviously, like all countries, there are some rich people.

                I did hear they are cracking down on the number of immigrants they allow in
                In the past 10 years NZ has had one of the highest immigration rates per capita in the OECD. There has been popular pressure building over the years to try and reduce the immigration rate, but I am skeptical that that will actually occur. (Covid has led to the borders being locked temporarily to non-citizens to stop the disease returning now it's been eliminated within the country, and citizens have to go through quarantine on arrival, but despite this Covid has led to massive immigration because NZ has a big expat population who have returned home due to NZ being safe from Covid and their local country of residence not being)
                Last edited by Starlight; 07-24-2020, 06:40 PM.
                "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  Socialism bad.

                  But yeah some of what you call "socialist" service are needed in society. It's what we call "welfare" -- using tax money to care for the needy.
                  I hate to break it to you but those are socialist not capitalist values.
                  "It ain't necessarily so
                  The things that you're liable
                  To read in the Bible
                  It ain't necessarily so
                  ."

                  Sportin' Life
                  Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                    It still amazes me, when I think about it, that bankruptcies caused by medical care are a thing in the US. And not just a thing, I've read it's the most common cause of bankruptcy in the US.
                    America isn't any other country. I am amazed that communism killed religion in europe, but we all have out amazements.

                    Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                    I'm not quite sure what the "many rich" part is supposed to be implying. NZ isn't overall a particularly rich country - it sits pretty much on the OECD average in terms of wealth and income. Probably the single biggest criticism of NZ tends to be that it's not very rich and that living costs are very high. Obviously, like all countries, there are some rich people.

                    In the past 10 years NZ has had one of the highest immigration rates per capita in the OECD. There has been popular pressure building over the years to try and reduce the immigration rate, but I am skeptical that that will actually occur. (Covid has led to the borders being locked temporarily to non-citizens to stop the disease returning now it's been eliminated within the country, and citizens have to go through quarantine on arrival, but despite this Covid has led to massive immigration because NZ has a big expat population who have returned home due to NZ being safe from Covid and their local country of residence not being)
                    Most tiny, isolated places can be Covid free with a little effort.

                    I have no idea why you think this has any meaning.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                      I hate to break it to you but those are socialist not capitalist values.
                      read. my. post.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        In today's election in New Zealand, popular 'socialist' PM Jacinda Ardern's party won an outright majority. This is the first time that has happened in the multi-party system that has been in use over the last 25 years.

                        The main contributing factors seem to be her personal popularity as a kind and empathetic and honest leader, and her government's success in twice eliminating Covid from the country thus allowing life to continue as normal within the closed borders.

                        Although she makes bold claims of being progressive and occasionally gets accused of being 'socialist' by some on the right, it seems like she intends to govern as a centrist and do little that's different.
                        "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                        "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                        "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                          In today's election in New Zealand, popular 'socialist' PM Jacinda Ardern's party won an outright majority. This is the first time that has happened in the multi-party system that has been in use over the last 25 years.

                          The main contributing factors seem to be her personal popularity as a kind and empathetic and honest leader, and her government's success in twice eliminating Covid from the country thus allowing life to continue as normal within the closed borders.

                          Although she makes bold claims of being progressive and occasionally gets accused of being 'socialist' by some on the right, it seems like she intends to govern as a centrist and do little that's different.
                          Centrists aren't real popular over here, sadly...

                          Comment

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