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I managed to predict pretty much exactly what would be posted here. So let's go through this...
RE: PUAhate
Despite PUAHate being a website explicitly for opposing Pick Up Artists and assorted crap - doesn't mean that it's not of a distinctly "Manosphere" flavour. The site is full of the same misogyny and a lot of the same ideology - opposing it not on the grounds of it being the disgusting instruction manual for the rapeminded but because of it's effectiveness.
RE: Entitlement, etc.
The piece Epo quoted in his first post actually has a slither of truth to it.
Of course, the conclusion is nothing short of evil:
In Epo/Roissy's view, the solution is to teach men "game" - which, for the (lucky) uninitiated - is essentially a method by which one manipulates and violates the boundaries of women in order to "pick [them] up."
How about, instead, we teach men that they are not entitled to women's bodies - that is the problem here. When everything in society teaches young men that they're entitled to women's bodies and they're unable to get what they think they're owed? Yeah. (In fact, this is pretty much the whole MRA movement in a nutshell.)
There are ways of persuing someone romantically/sexually that don't involve thinking you're owed their time, attention and sex with them. Or, for that matter, without harassment and violating someone's bodily autonomy.
The anger he shows is that of someone who believes that he is being denied what he is owed:
(Bolding mine - and racism too, joy!)
RE: Mental Illness
Firstly, people who have mental illnesses and haven't killed a load of people put your hand up. *raises hand* Mentally ill people are considerably more likely to be the victims of violence rather than the perpetrator.
That aside, it does seem (from the information we currently have available) that he had some sort of mental instability. On the other hand, that doesn't mean we shouldn't look at:
(and let's also point out the gender inbalance in violence by/against people with mental health issues. Men commit more and are victims of less.)
(Also, there's a race thing here too. Notice how white mass murderers are mentally ill, brown ones are terrorists and black ones are thugs? Yeah.)
RE: "Politicising"
This is a political matter. It was a political matter because of the motivations, because of the 140 page manifesto he wrote before committing mass murder. Because of the people defending his actions, or blaming them on women. Because people are denying the role of misogyny in his actions.
In case you missed the link to his manifesto, it's available here.
He makes it quite obvious that his actions are to further an agenda, as well as getting revenge for said perceived slight:
Including advocating for gendercide:
Bolding mine. (Wanting to put women in concentration camps is a well known liberal belief, of course.)
This incident is entirely, absolutely to do with misogyny. He's quite obviously an extremist, absolutely - but his thinking is not too dissimilar to that of the MRM as a whole, and there are points to which the man on the street would agree to to some extent.
It's also a hate crime. This is an important thing to point out - and, as is a characteristic of hate crimes - it's a crime against a group rather than just the individuals.
[Won't embed this picture because it's awful, but have some people's comments on it: http://i.imgur.com/nlzhoFp.jpg - there are lots more where that came from.]
Yuuuuuup.
(I have seen a lot of "if women had slept with him, those people wouldn't have been killed" - which is edited terrifying.)
RE: Pattern of Violence Against Women
Violence Against Women (VAW) is a pandemic (1) (2) - violence from intimate partners, friends/acquaintances and strangers (with the first two categories being more likely.) A lot of these acts of violence are about access/control of women's bodies/lives.
Ignoring this fact in one's analysis is a huge mistake. Any individual act of VAW doesn't just stand on its own, but in a culture in which it's rampant. Alongside this particular act this year (in the US) there will be about 300,000 rapes, 3,000 murders and a huge number of other physical assaults - ~60% of which will be perpetrated by a partner or ex-partner. (x)
The pattern of VAW is supported by a society which - as previously spoken about in length - makes men feel entitled to women and women's sexuality.
Thousands of men murder women each year, and millions more physically assault them. Not the actions of a lone madman.
I've heard this expressed as: If he [rodgers] had just murdered his girlfriend, no one would have heard about it.
RE: Teal and "advocating violence"
I don't think I have enough fire to burn down every dingy basement.
Hello, welcome to rhetoric. For the unaware, I mean "Stop the movement. Stop making people think it's an okay ideology to have. Stop saying that "well, they have some points..." Don't associate with the evil bastards who are part of it. Don't give them platforms or support. Systematically dismantle the movement to the point where it no longer functions as a method for isolated misogynstic asshats to become... well, even more misogynistic asshats, I suppose."
Mmk?
RE: PUAhate
Despite PUAHate being a website explicitly for opposing Pick Up Artists and assorted crap - doesn't mean that it's not of a distinctly "Manosphere" flavour. The site is full of the same misogyny and a lot of the same ideology - opposing it not on the grounds of it being the disgusting instruction manual for the rapeminded but because of it's effectiveness.
RE: Entitlement, etc.
The piece Epo quoted in his first post actually has a slither of truth to it.
When men kill women, the underlying reason is almost always an unfulfilled psychosexual need. This goes for spree shooters, rapists, and serial killers...
Of course, the conclusion is nothing short of evil:
Originally posted by Same quote.
In Epo/Roissy's view, the solution is to teach men "game" - which, for the (lucky) uninitiated - is essentially a method by which one manipulates and violates the boundaries of women in order to "pick [them] up."
How about, instead, we teach men that they are not entitled to women's bodies - that is the problem here. When everything in society teaches young men that they're entitled to women's bodies and they're unable to get what they think they're owed? Yeah. (In fact, this is pretty much the whole MRA movement in a nutshell.)
Originally posted by DE
There are ways of persuing someone romantically/sexually that don't involve thinking you're owed their time, attention and sex with them. Or, for that matter, without harassment and violating someone's bodily autonomy.
The anger he shows is that of someone who believes that he is being denied what he is owed:
(Bolding mine - and racism too, joy!)
RE: Mental Illness
Firstly, people who have mental illnesses and haven't killed a load of people put your hand up. *raises hand* Mentally ill people are considerably more likely to be the victims of violence rather than the perpetrator.
That aside, it does seem (from the information we currently have available) that he had some sort of mental instability. On the other hand, that doesn't mean we shouldn't look at:
- The fact that the MRA ideology facilitated and helped develop his extremism.
- The fact that there are people (both in the MRM and not) defending, justifying or excusing his actions.
- The fact that there's a pattern of VAW that this fits into - it's not an isolated incident. (see later)
(and let's also point out the gender inbalance in violence by/against people with mental health issues. Men commit more and are victims of less.)
(Also, there's a race thing here too. Notice how white mass murderers are mentally ill, brown ones are terrorists and black ones are thugs? Yeah.)
RE: "Politicising"
This is a political matter. It was a political matter because of the motivations, because of the 140 page manifesto he wrote before committing mass murder. Because of the people defending his actions, or blaming them on women. Because people are denying the role of misogyny in his actions.
In case you missed the link to his manifesto, it's available here.
He makes it quite obvious that his actions are to further an agenda, as well as getting revenge for said perceived slight:
Including advocating for gendercide:
Bolding mine. (Wanting to put women in concentration camps is a well known liberal belief, of course.)
This incident is entirely, absolutely to do with misogyny. He's quite obviously an extremist, absolutely - but his thinking is not too dissimilar to that of the MRM as a whole, and there are points to which the man on the street would agree to to some extent.
It's also a hate crime. This is an important thing to point out - and, as is a characteristic of hate crimes - it's a crime against a group rather than just the individuals.
[Won't embed this picture because it's awful, but have some people's comments on it: http://i.imgur.com/nlzhoFp.jpg - there are lots more where that came from.]
Yuuuuuup.
(I have seen a lot of "if women had slept with him, those people wouldn't have been killed" - which is edited terrifying.)
RE: Pattern of Violence Against Women
Violence Against Women (VAW) is a pandemic (1) (2) - violence from intimate partners, friends/acquaintances and strangers (with the first two categories being more likely.) A lot of these acts of violence are about access/control of women's bodies/lives.
Ignoring this fact in one's analysis is a huge mistake. Any individual act of VAW doesn't just stand on its own, but in a culture in which it's rampant. Alongside this particular act this year (in the US) there will be about 300,000 rapes, 3,000 murders and a huge number of other physical assaults - ~60% of which will be perpetrated by a partner or ex-partner. (x)
The pattern of VAW is supported by a society which - as previously spoken about in length - makes men feel entitled to women and women's sexuality.
Thousands of men murder women each year, and millions more physically assault them. Not the actions of a lone madman.
I've heard this expressed as: If he [rodgers] had just murdered his girlfriend, no one would have heard about it.
RE: Teal and "advocating violence"
I don't think I have enough fire to burn down every dingy basement.
Hello, welcome to rhetoric. For the unaware, I mean "Stop the movement. Stop making people think it's an okay ideology to have. Stop saying that "well, they have some points..." Don't associate with the evil bastards who are part of it. Don't give them platforms or support. Systematically dismantle the movement to the point where it no longer functions as a method for isolated misogynstic asshats to become... well, even more misogynistic asshats, I suppose."
Mmk?
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