Defund Police...

[Leonhard]

Leon, has it occurred to you that this WHOLE THING (with respect to Minneapolis) is in the hands of liberals?

I haven't said a single word about politicians. Whoever are responsible have a lot of explaining to do. I don't care about sides here. So far I'm hearing crickets. I'm glad that you're condemning it and proposing solutions, really I am. You've been excellent in giving me different perspectives on it and I do listen to it. However its going to be interesting to see what'll come of this more than the police paying exorbiant settlement fees and pretending it never happened.

[Cow Poke]

I haven't said a single word about politicians.

That's who controls the process, Leon- the city council is comprised of liberal politicians. They have been in charge, and they are the ones who support the unions, and they are the ones wanting to disband the police department.

Whoever are responsible have a lot of explaining to do. I don't care about sides here. So far I'm hearing crickets.

I'm glad that you're condemning it and proposing solutions, really I am. You've been excellent in giving me different perspectives on it and I do listen to it. However its going to be interesting to see what'll come of this more than the police paying exorbiant settlement fees and pretending it never happened.

OK, THAT Would be in civil suits, like wrongful death. The CRIMINAL case has to do with these cops going to jail (or not) and for how long.

[JimL]

Minneapolis is defunding and dismantling their police force. No. More. Police. Department. At least that is what the city council voted to do. The Mayer is saying no, and got booed for it.

I say if they don't want police, just put up a wall around the city and let them go at it like that movie "Escape from New York"

Maybe they can sell tickets to it like some Purge version of Disney Land.

That doesn't mean abolish police altogether, it means remaking the system. Camden NJ has already done this years ago. They disbanded the police, fired them all, including the Chief of police, then they refomed the system, retrained and rehired those who were fired, including the Chief of Police, and the result was that crime went way dowm, and murders went down by 70%. The Police chief is now a huge proponent of disbanding, reforming, retraining and reallocating funds to the community.
Defunding doesn't necessarily mean the exact same thing to everyone, but the main point is reform, not abolishing law enforcement altogether.

[Cow Poke]

That doesn't mean abolish police altogether, it means remaking the system.....

Minneapolis may be the first city to dismantle the police

[ATTACH=CONFIG]45443[/ATTACH]

On Sunday, after weeks of protests following the police killing of George Floyd, a veto-proof majority of Minneapolis City Council members pledged to dissolve the city’s police department and create a new system for providing public safety.

“We are going to dismantle the Minneapolis Police Department,” Jeremiah Ellison, a Minneapolis city councilman, said on Twitter last week. “And when we’re done, we’re not simply gonna glue it back together. We are going to dramatically rethink how we approach public safety and emergency response.”

Ellison has been joined by eight other council members. On Sunday, City Council President Lisa Bender, who has pledged to vote for the plan, said the lawmakers decided to take the step because “our efforts at incremental reform have failed. Period.”

Overall, activists’ push for “the dismantling” of the police is rooted in racially biased policing....

Minneapolis’s move to dismantle its police department comes in the context of this conversation. The city’s push to introduce a new policy paradigm for public safety positions it as the first to meet this protester demand — and a potential model for other cities currently weighing similar concerns.

What part of "dismantle" do the leftist extremist fringe nutters not understand?



Jim, stop swallowing the crap you are being fed.

[Leonhard]

Honestly considering poorly the police behaved during these riots, where they had ample opportunity to peacefully protest alongside the protesters, or make symbolic gestures like going down on one knee while the protesters marched past etc... they've been beating up, driving into and pepper spraying the protesters, ... On the basis of that Cow Poke, how do you justify to people not to dismantle the police? Remember unlike in the past when all the police had to do was just invent out of whole cloth whatever narrative fitted them, now people have cameras, and thanks to laws, they have body cams.

And guess what the National Guard "accidentally" didn't turn on during their "peaceful" patrols where they "just happened" to kill one of the protesters. Oh yeah you can bet they forgot to turn on (or deleted retroactively) the video of those events.

So far based on what I'm seeing I say go for it. Disband em, the more videos I'm seeing of them ramming their vehicles into protesters, beating up people who were peacefully protesting, shooting at people on their porches, and otherwise just engaging complete barbarism, I'm inclined to say go for it. Just defund them, and take their pension with it too.

[Cow Poke]

....Camden NJ has already done this years ago. They disbanded the police, fired them all, including the Chief of police, then they refomed the system, retrained and rehired those who were fired, including the Chief of Police, and the result was that crime went way dowm, and murders went down by 70%. The Police chief is now a huge proponent of disbanding, reforming, retraining and reallocating funds to the community.

One of the first things I noticed about this is that, at the time, the Camden NJ police department was non-union. BIG difference. Plus, Camden population was about 70,000 compared to Minneapolis' half a million.

The transformation began after the 2012 homicide spike. The department wanted to put more officers on patrol but couldn’t afford to hire more, partly because of generous union contracts.

As some activists call for cities to defund the police, Camden’s reforms are more incremental in nature. “I think the challenge is that you have 18,000 police departments” in the U.S., says Thomson. “It’s an industry that generally is averse to any type of change. The only time change comes is when it’s compelled.”

[JimL]

This isn't a new concept, CP. As I pointed out it's already been done, and its worked for the better. Check out Camden NJ who did it years ago. People have different ideas of how to go about it, but it doesn't include ending law enforcement.

[Cow Poke]

Honestly considering poorly the police behaved during these riots, where they had ample opportunity to peacefully protest alongside the protesters, or make symbolic gestures like going down on one knee while the protesters marched past etc... they've been beating up, driving into and pepper spraying the protesters, ...

Wow, Leon.... there's an awful lot of assumin' and generalization there.

On the basis of that Cow Poke, how do you justify to people not to dismantle the police?

Once again --- get rid of the union, fire the Chief, give him the authority to hire, fire, discipline....

Remember unlike in the past when all the police had to do was just invent out of whole cloth whatever narrative fitted them, now people have cameras, and thanks to laws, they have body cams.

I was initially against body cams, but I have seen time and time where they actually exonorate a good cop, and help convict a bad com.

And guess what the National Guard "accidentally" didn't turn on during their "peaceful" patrols where they "just happened" to kill one of the protesters. Oh yeah you can bet they forgot to turn on (or deleted retroactively) the video of those events.

Ya lost me here --- what didn't they "accidentally" turn on? Body cams?

So far based on what I'm seeing I say go for it. Disband em, the more videos I'm seeing of them ramming their vehicles into protesters, beating up people who were peacefully protesting, shooting at people on their porches, and otherwise just engaging complete barbarism, I'm inclined to say go for it. Just defund them, and take their pension with it too.

Wow. I think we're too far apart on how we view this to continue a discussion, Leon. I've given you my recommendations.

[Cow Poke]

This isn't a new concept, CP. As I pointed out it's already been done, and its worked for the better. Check out Camden NJ who did it years ago. People have different ideas of how to go about it, but it doesn't include ending law enforcement.

I covered that.

[Leonhard]

Ya lost me here --- what didn't they "accidentally" turn on? Body cams?

Yes, the National Guard didn't turn on their body cams when they shot and killed a protester (or deleted it). Big surprise there.

Wow. I think we're too far apart on how we view this to continue a discussion, Leon. I've given you my recommendations.

And you seem to be in complete denial about the bad behavior of cops during these protests.

[DesertBerean]

Honestly considering poorly the police behaved during these riots, where they had ample opportunity to peacefully protest alongside the protesters, or make symbolic gestures like going down on one knee while the protesters marched past etc... they've been beating up, driving into and pepper spraying the protesters, ... On the basis of that Cow Poke, how do you justify to people not to dismantle the police? Remember unlike in the past when all the police had to do was just invent out of whole cloth whatever narrative fitted them, now people have cameras, and thanks to laws, they have body cams.

And guess what the National Guard "accidentally" didn't turn on during their "peaceful" patrols where they "just happened" to kill one of the protesters. Oh yeah you can bet they forgot to turn on (or deleted retroactively) the video of those events.

So far based on what I'm seeing I say go for it. Disband em, the more videos I'm seeing of them ramming their vehicles into protesters, beating up people who were peacefully protesting, shooting at people on their porches, and otherwise just engaging complete barbarism, I'm inclined to say go for it. Just defund them, and take their pension with it too.

Leonhard, I remember reading about the constant rioting and other acts of violence in Europe...France, especially I think. Don't think I've seen any recently. But - how much of a role did police have in that? Were any of them caught doing things? Or were they involved at all in trying to keep order?

I hadn't heard anything about this about the Nat Guard but I'll say this. Governors are in charge of them. Their policies and regulations, from what I recall, are from the state level. Body cams and such would fall within this category I think. They don't fall under Federal control until the President (and I think Congress - memory is hazy) decides to nationalize them - usually in wartime.

[Leonhard]

Leonhard, I remember reading about the constant rioting and other acts of violence in Europe...France, especially I think. Don't think I've seen any recently. But - how much of a role did police have in that? Were any of them caught doing things? Or were they involved at all in trying to keep order?

We don't have militarized police in Denmark. I've never seen anything as ridiculous as what I'm seeing here. I think the closest that comes to mind is when the police would occassionaly fire tear gas to disperse some protesters who threw molotov cocktails. But even that is a rarity. I have not seen the police ram their cars into protesters who were surrounding the vehicles, or marched forward to pepper spray protesters for shouting at them from a distance.

I hadn't heard anything about this about the Nat Guard but I'll say this. Governors are in charge of them. Their policies and regulations, from what I recall, are from the state level. Body cams and such would fall within this category I think. They don't fall under Federal control until the President (and I think Congress - memory is hazy) decides to nationalize them - usually in wartime.

The national guard has killed a protester, and their body cams just so happened not have been turned on.

[rogue06]

Leonhard, I remember reading about the constant rioting and other acts of violence in Europe...France, especially I think. Don't think I've seen any recently. But - how much of a role did police have in that? Were any of them caught doing things? Or were they involved at all in trying to keep order?

I hadn't heard anything about this about the Nat Guard but I'll say this. Governors are in charge of them. Their policies and regulations, from what I recall, are from the state level. Body cams and such would fall within this category I think. They don't fall under Federal control until the President (and I think Congress - memory is hazy) decides to nationalize them - usually in wartime.

IIRC, it was Eisenhower who took command of the local National Guard during desegregation. And the Elder Bush called in the regular military to help restore order after the Rodney King verdict.

[DesertBerean]

IIRC, it was Eisenhower who took command of the local National Guard during desegregation. And the Elder Bush called in the regular military to help restore order after the Rodney King verdict.

Hm yes that's right...although I thought the Elder Bush only threatened to nationalize the Nat Guard when it was said that the Governor wouldn't give them more than a bullet apiece. I'll have to re read my history. Thanks.

[DesertBerean]

We don't have militarized police in Denmark. I've never seen anything as ridiculous as what I'm seeing here. I think the closest that comes to mind is when the police would occassionaly fire tear gas to disperse some protesters who threw molotov cocktails. But even that is a rarity. I have not seen the police ram their cars into protesters who were surrounding the vehicles, or marched forward to pepper spray protesters for shouting at them from a distance.



The national guard has killed a protester, and their body cams just so happened not have been turned on.

Ok...I'll have to check that out. As for the police ramming their squads through....unhappily there have been some instances where the violent protestors destroyed cars. I'm not aware of police being in that situation recently ...

As for Denmark, okay. But what about the rest of Europe?