Ahmaud Arbery; racist killing and attempted cover up.

[JimL]

There's a lot more to the story than a black man killed while jogging. That narrative is pretty old now. He was seen/caught trespassing in a home under construction, in a neighborhood that had experienced a rash of burglaries and he ran away when he was discovered. 911 was called and 2 men attempted to stop him and detain him until the police arrived. One of the men was a retired Police officer and had a license to carry a gun. Ahmaud stupidly (IMO) attacked and attempted to wrestle the gun away and was shot multiple times.

Lot's of things went horribly wrong here with a lot of mistakes on both sides.

I not sure if that was Arbery in the house construction site, or not, but so what if it was, he simply went in and looked at the construction and walked out. I've done the same myself. Those men had no right to chase him down and murder him. No, there is no excuse. Why do you people always blame the victim? I'd be willing to bet that if it were two black men that chased down and murdered a white kid you'd be outraged.

[Mountain Man]

Perhaps the last part of your own sentence that you conveniently left out could be important in this context.... Is that why you did not include it?

Let me help. You said:

Emphasis mine.

Sometimes what you leave out says quite a lot too.

You can emphasize whatever you want. Pointing out that he wasn't just an innocent jogger in no way suggests that the actions against him were justified.

[Leonhard]

So? The narrative that has built up around it is based on lies.

I don't care about the narrative. We have two vigilantes who shot someone without proper cause, manslaughter at least. You can try to spin it as much as you want, but at the end of the day, that's what it is.

[Leonhard]

And that video shows Ahmaud charging the truck and wrestling with the shooter before he's shot. So I have a feeling that at least one of the men will likely be charged with man slaughter instead of murder, and then, because the public has been charged up with false narratives, we'll have more racial tension because of it.

Wrestling with the shooter in no way gave the shooter a just cause to shoot him. He wanted to get out of the situation, was leaving peacefully, and those two vigilantes were doing a clumsy and foolish citizens arrest.

[Mountain Man]

I explained why your words do - in fact - justify these fellows in the first post in this exchange.

False. Your first response to me was a flat accusation without any attempt to support it, nor did you attempt to support your false accusation in subsequent posts. You did go on an extended rant about racism and the necessity of teaching black kids to be respectful to the police (a good lesson for anybody), which had nothing whatsoever to do with my post since I never even mentioned the racial angle.

I didn't attempt to justify anything. I simply described the circumstances that led up to the altercation. I don't expect you to apologize.

[Christian3]

firstfloor's objective with the thread is to sow political and racial discord, because that's what scumbag leftists like him love to do.

I always vote for who I think will be the best candidate to get the job done, but thanks to firstfloor and Jim L. and others like them, it will be a very long time for I vote for a Democrate again now that I know what they are really like.

[Leonhard]

I always vote for who I think will be the best candidate to get the job done, but thanks to firstfloor and Jim L. and others like them, it will be a very long time for I vote for a Democrate again now that I know what they are really like.

Have you considered hanging out in other forums. This is a very (sorry Sparko) right-wing forum, and almost unknown. There's a couple of leftists here, even a few leftist Christians (I'm one of them ). However JimL and firstfloor are mostly just here because they get a kick out of antagonistic posts. I suggest you head to Reddit, try the changemymind subreddit, or the AskLiberals, or AskFeminists, etc... I think you'll have a more stimulating experience.

[KingsGambit]

Have you considered hanging out in other forums. This is a very (sorry Sparko) right-wing forum, and almost unknown. There's a couple of leftists here, even a few leftist Christians (I'm one of them ). However JimL and firstfloor are mostly just here because they get a kick out of antagonistic posts. I suggest you head to Reddit, try the changemymind subreddit, or the AskLiberals, or AskFeminists, etc... I think you'll have a more stimulating experience.

If I based my voting based only on the overall behavior of people I ran into online, I would vote straight Democrat every time. (It's also a terrible reason to vote for anyone.)

[Mountain Man]

I don't care about the narrative. We have two vigilantes who shot someone without proper cause, manslaughter at least. You can try to spin it as much as you want, but at the end of the day, that's what it is.

You make it sound like they just walked up and shot him, which is the false narrative being promoted by the media. They confronted him while armed, yes, but then he tried to wrestle a gun away from the men. At that point, it became a matter of life or death.

There's also the question of whether or not the shooting was deliberate, or if it was an accidental discharge caused by the struggle. From what I can see in the video, the gun went off when Arbery grabbed the barrel and yanked it. If the other man's finger was on the trigger, that would have done it.

[Leonhard]

If I based my voting based only on the overall behavior of people I ran into online, I would vote straight Democrat every time. (It's also a terrible reason to vote for anyone.)

I come from a twelve party system, and even with all the luxury of choice I always agonize of which party I'll vote for. I can't remember a reason not to vote for what I believe in was that some guy on the internet was a jerk.

[Leonhard]

You make it sound like they just walked up and shot him, which is the false narrative being promoted by the media.

They pursued and followed him without cause. Then they attempted a clumsy citizens arrest against the law. They had no control of the situation, and he wanted out of it. He did not attack him, they did. That's pretty much what happened. What we see in the video is very clearly him trying to escape while they're gunning for him in the truck.

He was running up the street, they get out and start shouting at him, one of them has a shotgun. We know at some point he tries to flee, and the person with the shotgun shot him.

They confronted him while armed, yes, but then he tried to wrestle a gun away from the men. At that point, it became a matter of life or death.

It's very hard to square what happened with rational people in control of the situation. They were clearly waiting for him, and he was very clearly trying to escape the situation. Feeling threatened, which they had no reason to feel, is not just cause to just kill him, which is what they did.

There's also the question of whether or not the shooting was deliberate, or if it was an accidental discharge caused by the struggle. From what I can see in the video, the gun went off when Arbery grabbed the barrel of and yanked it. If the other man's finger was on the trigger, that would have done it.

From what I can tell they were the ones hunting him. They were the engagers, he wasn't. There's the whole testimony of his friend you're conveniently leaving out. He rounded the corner of the front of the truck, but you can't claim "stand your ground" if you intentionally placed yourself in a confronting situation in a public area. They were trying to pull off a stupid citizen's arrest.

I know you like disagreeing with the media, but there's just no defending this one. They were hunting him.

Manslaughter at least, but hopefully we'll have more justice and both of them get to spend the rest of their lives in prison on murder charges.

Then there's the matter of why this case somehow got to wait 76 days. We haven't heard a good explanation yet.

[Leonhard]

The neighborhood in question was ten-miles from his home, and he had cased the place at night on multiple occasions.

There is some evidence of this, though it's not clear if the person in those videos is Avery, it does, however, seem plausible.

Third, he was shot as a direct result of his own aggressive actions.

He was shot because a person was pointing a gun at him. He hadn't caused the gun to appear there, nor for that person to appear in that place. They were waiting for him, wanting to perform a citizen's arrest. He tried to escape, he came into contact with one of them, who promptly killed him. But they were the ones waiting for him.

I'm not saying he deserved to be shot, or that the guys were necessarily right to approach him while armed, or any nonsense like,

As I said manslaughter at least. They had no right to do what they did.

[Leonhard]

in a neighborhood that had experienced a rash of burglaries and he ran away when he was discovered

I've seen this claim bantied about a few times, but I haven't seen any evidence of it. Do you have any?

[Mountain Man]

They pursued and followed him without cause. Then they attempted a clumsy citizens arrest against the law. They had no control of the situation, and he wanted out of it. He did not attack him, they did. That's pretty much what happened. What we see in the video is very clearly him trying to escape while they're gunning for him in the truck.

He was running up the street, they get out and start shouting at him, one of them has a shotgun. We know at some point he tries to flee, and the person with the shotgun shot him.



It's very hard to square what happened with rational people in control of the situation. They were clearly waiting for him, and he was very clearly trying to escape the situation. Feeling threatened, which they had no reason to feel, is not just cause to just kill him, which is what they did.



From what I can tell they were the ones hunting him. They were the engagers, he wasn't. There's the whole testimony of his friend you're conveniently leaving out. He rounded the corner of the front of the truck, but you can't claim "stand your ground" if you intentionally placed yourself in a confronting situation in a public area. They were trying to pull off a stupid citizen's arrest.

I know you like disagreeing with the media, but there's just no defending this one. They were hunting him.

Manslaughter at least, but hopefully we'll have more justice and both of them get to spend the rest of their lives in prison on murder charges.

Then there's the matter of why this case somehow got to wait 76 days. We haven't heard a good explanation yet.

I've watched the video, and what you're describing is not entirely accurate. Yes, they pursued him. Yes, they confronted him. No, he wasn't trying to flee once they confronted. Rather, he ran around to the front of the truck, tried to grab the gun out of the other guy's hands and started punching him. During the struggle, the gun discharged. Whether this was deliberate or accidental is impossible to discern from the video, but I think that's going be the key as to whether or not the men are charged because it could easily be ruled accidental or self-defense.

I personally don't have an opinion one way or the other since I don't have all the facts, and I don't know what laws come into play. I think we all need to keep an open mind and not rush to judgement.

[MaxVel]

Stefan Molyneux has a good video that goes into all the currently known background of the case. I think he's fair and objective about this.

A couple of points that seem relevant from Molyneux's video:


It seems Georgia law requires visible carry of a long gun / shotgun. Hence the younger man holding (not pointing or aiming) the gun

The younger man had a handgun stolen from his car, parked outside his house. (--> Concern about thieves in the neighbourhood possibly being armed)

Arbery was (possibly?) known to the senior McMichael as a criminal due to previous involvement (McMichael being a cop).


It seems that they were legally making a citizen's arrest, and were aware of the law around that (police background).




Other thoughts:

Arbery should never have been in the house under construction - it wasn't his property, and he had no legitimate reason to enter it. He committed criminal trespass in doing so.

When he saw that someone had seen him enter and leave the house (and was on their phone), he ran off. Not illegal or 'wrong', but makes him look suspicious.

He initiated the fatal incident by approaching the truck, suddenly cutting across to where the younger man was standing, punching him and trying to wrestle the gun from him. He had lots of other choices, but he chose a very dangerous one - moving in and attacking someone holding a gun.


This happened in America - please don't import your expectations of how people should act from your country. It's not the same situation at all. At home I would never expect anyone to be armed with a gun. Even the police don't usually carry all the time. There is no law allowing any civilian to carry a gun in the streets, and shootings are very rare.

America - anyone anywhere could have a gun / handgun, legally or not. --> It is foolish and dangerous to initiate a physical confrontation with someone in America. They might have a gun, and shoot you (in legitimate self defense or otherwise). Don't start fights.