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Ahmaud Arbery; racist killing and attempted cover up.

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  • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    He knows it's untrue because I told him it was untrue …
    That doesn't follow if, for example, he thinks you are fooling yourself.
    Therefore, I think it is fair to call it a lie considering he had no valid reason to believe his accusation was true.
    I don't think you have a valid reason to disbelieve climate change.

    Should I call you a liar when you do?
    Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

    MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
    MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

    seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

    Comment


    • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
      The problem here is you don't understand how racism can be inculcated into a culture without those in the culture being consciously aware of what is happening. If I said 'you are racist', that would not be at all fair. Most of us don't want to be racist and we reject any overt racism that we see. But there are elements of racism built into our culture, and it is not necessarily easy to recognize them for what they are. But I am fighting two blockages in trying to raise this issue. One is the general lack of goodwill, "The Ox must be trying to disparage us" - which I'm not. But then there is just the general unwillingness to see in ourselves that which we do not want to be part of us - which is racism. So for a moment convince yourself I'm not attacking anyone here and try to read the next two paragraphs with an open mind, without prejudice.*

      Here in this thread there is this underlying message that this black man must have been up to no good. And that is part of the underlying racist mindset that is part of our entire culture. It is very hard to get away from. Each time it's pointed out, a large cry goes forward. No - I'm NOT being racist! And yet, there it is. How many words in this thread express true outrage at what the white men actually did? And how many words are focused on what the black fellow might have been doing? There are also repetitions of racist based accusations that have already been shown to be false. Accusations he was 'casing' the place, when the actual evidence is that however many times he happened to wander through that house, nothing was ever taken or disturbed or damaged. This guy may have been going over there for no other reason than that the roads are isolated and not heavily traveled, speed limits are low, and it's just a really nice place to run. I regularly drive 35 minutes from my house to ride on the C&O trail because it's just a nice place to ride a bike.

      Yet those sorts of possibilities are not raised at all. I'm the only one I think so far that has proposed reasons that have no nefarious origin for everything we know about this case. Why? Is it because this fellow is black and deep in our subconsciousness are images of black violence and crime (another issue) and we just tend to be more suspicious of a black guy doing these things than a white guy? Is it because these shooters are white and we sorta don't really want them to be the racists they appear to be? We can't really help it - unless we consciously fight it - unless we make the effort to look it over carefully and ask - what would my reaction be if this was a young white man instead of a young black man. Would I just assume a young white man walking through a house under construction was there to 'case' it? Especially after we learn the ONLY theft that had occurred involved something stolen from one of the perpetrators? And that their claim there had been 'burglaries' (plural) was false?

      ETA*: keep in mind that 'under the covers' racism of the sort I'm talking about can affect the thinking of ALL members of a culture - even the non-white ones.
      I've lived in downtown LA for two decades, and in broader LA my entire life. I don't understand how racism can be inculcated into a culture? That's where I stopped reading your rambling nonsensical diatribe.

      Comment


      • We can judge our own racism if we think about how we would feel if, other facts being equal, a white jogger, running through a black neighbourhood had been ambushed and killed by two Hillary supporting black dudes.

        How quickly would the authorities have acted in that case?

        Justice, of course, ought to be colour blind. The fact that it’s not should make us all very angry.
        “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
        “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
        “not all there” - you know who you are

        Comment


        • Originally posted by seanD View Post
          I've lived in downtown LA for two decades, and in broader LA my entire life. I don't understand how racism can be inculcated into a culture? That's where I stopped reading your rambling nonsensical diatribe.
          And you most certainly will never understand it if you stop reading the moment the topic is mentioned.
          My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

          If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

          This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

          Comment


          • Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
            We can judge our own racism if we think about how we would feel if, other facts being equal, a white jogger,
            facts being equal and all..."Jogging" in boots and khakis after leaving a house under construction.

            running through a black neighbourhood
            Neighborhoods have races now?

            had been ambushed
            Ambushed?

            am·bush
            /ˈambo͝oSH/
            noun
            noun: ambush; plural noun: ambushes
            a surprise attack by people lying in wait in a concealed position.

            The video clearly shows him making a sharp left in front of the truck where the son was prominently standing. He had 3 other directions in which to turn.

            and killed by two Hillary supporting black dudes.

            How quickly would the authorities have acted in that case?

            Justice, of course, ought to be colour blind. The fact that it’s not should make us all very angry.
            It should also be free from passion and hyperbole, and beholden only to fact.
            That's what
            - She

            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
            - Stephen R. Donaldson

            Comment


            • Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
              We can judge our own racism if we think about how we would feel if, other facts being equal, a white jogger, running through a black neighbourhood had been ambushed and killed by two Hillary supporting black dudes.

              How quickly would the authorities have acted in that case?

              Justice, of course, ought to be colour blind. The fact that it’s not should make us all very angry.
              We probably would never hear about it because it would be but a blip, if that, in the MSM. There certainly would be no celebrity tweets about it or tweets from political figures and activists.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                facts being equal and all..."Jogging" in boots and khakis after leaving a house under construction.
                and exactly what level of detail in that video tells you what sort of shoes he was wearing?

                But even assuming they were 'boots' (1) There are a large number of crossover running/hiking shoes on the market. (2) And what exactly does his running clothing have to do with anything, except perhaps he wasn't wealthy enough to afford a fine set of running shoes (or just didn't need them or care). This is an absolutely perfect example of the bias and racist undertones that have dominated the conversation. There is nothing about this - even if true - that has anything to do with anything except wanting to continue the narrative this 'black man' had to be up to no good.

                Why?

                Do you have evidence this statement from runners world is false:

                https://www.runnersworld.com/news/a3...g-in-february/

                Source: above

                Ahmaud Arbery, a 25-year-old black man who was a dedicated athlete, was on a run around 1 p.m. on February 23 in Satilla Shores, Georgia, when he was shot and killed by two white men. It took more than two months—and the release this week of a graphic video of his killing—before Arbery’s death received widespread attention.

                © Copyright Original Source




                Neighborhoods have races now?
                Why yes, they do. And just where do you live, some island in the pacific?

                Another of those racist underpinnings that you and others want to pretend do not exist. Indeed, in spite of the fact it is illegal to do so, often white people are steered to and buy houses in predominantly white neighborhoods, and black people mysteriously manage not to be shown houses in those neighborhoods unless they press the issue. Yes BTC, there are still some rather significant racial separations in terms of where people live, with black neighborhoods almost always being less wealthy, less posh than the white counterparts.

                Especially in the south. e.g. Georgia, but also right here in my home state of Maryland.

                Ambushed?

                am·bush
                /ˈambo͝oSH/
                noun
                noun: ambush; plural noun: ambushes
                a surprise attack by people lying in wait in a concealed position.

                The video clearly shows him making a sharp left in front of the truck where the son was prominently standing. He had 3 other directions in which to turn.
                Fight or flight BTC. Rather than be shot in the back running away or lie down and let them do whatever they wanted, he chose to fight for his life.



                It should also be free from passion and hyperbole, and beholden only to fact.
                So you think me using the word 'ambushed' somehow doesn't tell the truth about a truck stopped in the middle of the road with one man standing behind it to the right (Arbery is running on the left) with a gun, and the other man standing in the bed armed? I think it tells the story quite well. So What word would you prefer I use, attacked, blocked, cutoff? Does it really make any real difference? does an ambush necessarily always have to involve complete concealment? IF you were running down a road with a truck stopped ahead, would you be expecting the occupants to be armed and gunning for you? Would you not be surprised to learn that was the case? I would be. I don't usually run down a road expecting any car stopped to be ready to gun me down if I don't stop. Do you?

                How often have you been confronted on a walk, run, or bike ride by someone angry at you? threatening you. With a gun pointed at you or wielded menacingly at you? Do you know what it feels like? how hard it is to figure out what is going on? How it takes a while for your brain to begin to believe you are actually now in this ridiculous and dangerous situation? how sometimes you just don't think all that rationally in those situations? Especially if you've not had special training in how to deal with them.
                Last edited by oxmixmudd; 05-15-2020, 03:03 PM.
                My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  That struck me, as well.... It's like another case of "the coverup is worse than the crime" situation. Now, note that I am saying "like", and recognizing the fact that a man is actually dead from the original incident, so it's MORE like "adding insult to injury" not to have a thorough investigation done.
                  Looking at this case as two elements:
                  1) Possible criminal activity, and a man is dead.
                  I know Oxi hates this argument, but criminal activity happens all the time all over the place. It is normally handled locally to everyone's satisfaction. And it is also noteworthy that no amount of argument is going to change criminal behavior by criminals.

                  2) Possible preferential treatment by a police department or District Attorney.
                  This is more concerning because this is where real discrimination occurs; it is government-sanctioned oppression, the systemic kind, if some members of the public are treated better than others.

                  When there is an officer-involved shooting in Texas, it's not at all unusual for the case to be turned over to the Texas Rangers for investigation. (Yeah, I know, this wasn't an active duty police officer)
                  There is nothing worse than a law enforcement agency volunteering to investigate itself.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Ronson View Post
                    There is nothing worse than a law enforcement agency volunteering to investigate itself.
                    About the only way that works is when you have some of the major critics involved in the process. But even that can go south.
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                      and exactly what level of detail in that video tells you what sort of shoes he was wearing?
                      It doesn't. I'll retract that statement until more information becomes available.

                      But even assuming they were 'boots' (1) There are a large number of crossover running/hiking shoes on the market. (2) And what exactly does his running clothing have to do with anything, except perhaps he wasn't wealthy enough to afford a fine set of running shoes (or just didn't need them or care).
                      "Avid runners" use running shoes. IF they were boots, that says he wasn't out for a jog - 10 miles from home.

                      This is an absolutely perfect example of the bias and racist undertones that have dominated the conversation.
                      Bologna. White dudes jogging in boots is suspicious too.

                      There is nothing about this - even if true - that has anything to do with anything except wanting to continue the narrative this 'black man' had to be up to no good.

                      Why?
                      Um, because he was in a construction site he had no business in? And because someone had stolen a gun from a parked car the month before? What do either of those have to do with his color?

                      Do you have evidence this statement from runners world is false:

                      https://www.runnersworld.com/news/a3...g-in-february/

                      Source: above

                      Ahmaud Arbery, a 25-year-old black man who was a dedicated athlete, was on a run around 1 p.m. on February 23 in Satilla Shores, Georgia, when he was shot and killed by two white men. It took more than two months—and the release this week of a graphic video of his killing—before Arbery’s death received widespread attention.

                      © Copyright Original Source

                      It lacks any detail that frames this in any other way than "innocent black kid hunted down by rednecks with guns". Why? What purpose does leaving out the fact that he was 10 miles from home, had trespassed inside a construction site, and struck the first blow?


                      Why yes, they do. And just where do you live, some island in the pacific?
                      I live in a neighborhood. There are no signs I have ever seen that said "This is a black neighborhood" or "This is a white neighborhood". Those things died out in the 60's.

                      Another of those racist underpinnings that you and others want to pretend do not exist. Indeed, in spite of the fact it is illegal to do so, often white people are steered to and buy houses in predominantly white neighborhoods, and black people mysteriously manage not to be shown houses in those neighborhoods unless they press the issue. Yes BTC, there are still some rather significant racial separations in terms of where people live, with black neighborhoods almost always being less wealthy, less posh than the white counterparts.
                      The only racist underpinnings are opinions like this. There are no "black neighborhoods" as that would mean that it was illegal for any other race to live there. It simply doesn't exist. Tribalism may account for demographics in some neighborhoods, but that does not in any way make them a race.

                      Especially in the south. e.g. Georgia, but also right here in my home state of Maryland.
                      I live in Richmond. Perhaps you could find a picture of a sign that says "whites only" in the neighborhood in question from GA?


                      Fight or flight BTC. Rather than be shot in the back running away or lie down and let them do whatever they wanted, he chose to fight for his life.
                      This assumes that they were intending to shoot him. Something you have no way of proving. The first shot was not fired until he turned toward the son and physically engaged him. The video is clear on that.


                      So you think me using the word 'ambushed' somehow doesn't tell the truth about a truck stopped in the middle of the road with one man standing behind it to the right (Arbery is running on the left) with a gun, and the other man standing in the bed armed? I think it tells the story quite well. So What word would you prefer I use, attacked, blocked, cutoff?
                      Blocked is the proper word. And the truck was on the right side of the road. Joggers are supposed to walk/run on the left. That's the law in GA. The son was standing just in front of the driver's side. In the middle of the road. Arbery broke hard right to go around the truck, then immediately turned left in front of it and physically engaged the son. There was no threat indicated from the video, so claiming "fight or flight" is nothing but speculation.

                      Does it really make any real difference? does an ambush necessarily always have to involve complete concealment? IF you were running down a road with a truck stopped ahead, would you be expecting the occupants to be armed and gunning for you? Would you not be surprised to learn that was the case? I would be. I don't usually run down a road expecting any car stopped to be ready to gun me down if I don't stop. Do you?
                      If someone is stopping me in a neighborhood I don't live in, I stop and find out what they want. Unless you are saying that anyone who stops you wants to kill you? Are you speculating again?

                      How often have you been confronted on a walk, run, or bike ride by someone angry at you? threatening you. With a gun pointed at you or wielded menacingly at you?
                      There isn't any evidence from the video that their guns were pointed at him as he approached. And "wielded menacingly"? Speculating again, are we??

                      Do you know what it feels like? how hard it is to figure out what is going on? How it takes a while for your brain to begin to believe you are actually now in this ridiculous and dangerous situation? how sometimes you just don't think all that rationally in those situations? Especially if you've not had special training in how to deal with them.
                      If that's the case, then indeed this is just a tragic situation that escalated based on fear and lack of crisis management. I've not seen if these two were part of the neighborhood watch, but if they were, having their guns and attempting a citizen's arrest are not illegal in GA AFAICT. Maybe someone who lives in GA or knows the appropriate laws can clarify what the law entails? I have no problem changing my mind, but I expect 1) Thorough reporting good AND bad and 2) A presumption of innocence until proven guilty.
                      That's what
                      - She

                      Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                      - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                      I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                      - Stephen R. Donaldson

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seanD View Post
                        I've lived in downtown LA for two decades, and in broader LA my entire life. I don't understand how racism can be inculcated into a culture? That's where I stopped reading your rambling nonsensical diatribe.
                        ox is setting a classic kafkatrap.
                        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                        Than a fool in the eyes of God


                        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                          Well, I'm trying not to accuse you specifically of anything, but what I am saying is that treating this as no big deal is the sort of rhetoric I would expect from a white supremacist. But thinking about it a little more, maybe that expectation is wrong in this case. A white supremacist would be all over the injustice to the white shooters. Much more so than is evidenced in this thread. But you are dismissing the importance of the facts in this case that raise it to a level of a hate crime, so perhaps it would be more appropriate to view that as more evidence of ignorance of the history of american racism and how such an event is an example of it.
                          No adult American is ignorant of race history in this country. Just because someone doesn't agree with your particular view of it doesn't mean they're ignorant.

                          There are three elements of racism being evidenced in the case so far. (1) There are the people chasing the black fellow down without justification and ultimately killing him.
                          How did you determine that their motive was race related?

                          (2) There is the Georgia law enforcement mishandling of the case and deference to the white perpetrators,
                          Same question: How did you determine this? It is also true that the father is a former police officer, and it is not uncommon for officers to protect each other.

                          (3) and there is the ongoing effort to try to make it the black mans fault he died.
                          I don't know enough about those details to comment.

                          So when a person augments or supports one or more of those 3 elements, Unfortunately, either knowingly or unknowingly, that person is in fact supporting the racially motivated underpinnings that have produced them.
                          In your opinion.

                          That doesn't mean a great deal. Those events were captured and reported on extensively. And that is the point, The media is not reacting to this story any less than it would any similar story involving the fundamental elements I outlined.
                          Every major news agency has one or more stories on this event every single day. It is plastered all over the news aggregates.

                          There is partial truth in your first comment - that is one motivation. But that can only be used to dismiss stories that truly have no merit on their own. This is not such a story. There is nothing manufactured here. This is a big deal, and it is in the news because it is a big deal.
                          Again, in your opinion. And in the opinion of news agencies that appeal to their sponsors through viewership or clicks.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                            ox is setting a classic kafkatrap.
                            He's been so brainwashed by SJW nonsense, he literally cannot think rationally about this issue. It's a crazy thing to watch in realtime. I get especially upset by it because it's dangerous and not good for society to be this divided on issues that told in false ways.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post

                              Um, because he was in a construction site he had no business in? And because someone had stolen a gun from a parked car the month before? What do either of those have to do with his color?
                              Good grief. So do I get this right. Someone stole a gun A MONTH AGO means the black guy jogging down the street is a suspect? And that two guys should grab their guns, block the road, and attempt to subdue him?

                              And of course, the fact he took a few minutes in an empty house under construction seals the deal - right? (assuming they even knew about it)

                              And of course, they would have done this whether or not the dude jogging was black or white - right?

                              Is that the story you want me to buy into?
                              My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                              If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                              This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by seanD View Post
                                He's been so brainwashed by SJW nonsense, he literally cannot think rationally about this issue. It's a crazy thing to watch in realtime. I get especially upset by it because it's dangerous and not good for society to be this divided on issues that told in false ways.
                                Hard to be brainwashed by something you've never even heard of sean.

                                And I think the 'trouble thinking rationally' is more likley coming from those that must resort to ad hominem rather that reasoned argumentation to make their case.
                                My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                                If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                                This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                                Comment

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