Lab Leak: The conspiracy theory is shaping up to look like real possibility

[Stoic]

Does that change the fact that it looks as if their experiments did lead to COVID-19 and some accident let it loose on the world?

Not at all. That's a completely separate question.

It certainly looks to me (a non-expert) like covid-19 is the result of an experiment similar to the ones described in the paper. It appears to be a chimera with RaTG13 (which was being studied at WIV) for the backbone, and a spike protein from a pangolin coronavirus. (An expert might be able to come up with some reason why that can't be the case.)

That may not be conclusive proof, but I consider it very persuasive evidence, especially unless and until someone comes up with a coronavirus in the wild that is a close ancestor of SARS-Cov-2, and unless and until China starts cooperating.

[Sparko]

Not at all. That's a completely separate question.

It certainly looks to me (a non-expert) like covid-19 is the result of an experiment similar to the ones described in the paper. It appears to be a chimera with RaTG13 (which was being studied at WIV) for the backbone, and a spike protein from a pangolin coronavirus. (An expert might be able to come up with some reason why that can't be the case.)

That may not be conclusive proof, but I consider it very persuasive evidence, especially unless and until someone comes up with a coronavirus in the wild that is a close ancestor of SARS-Cov-2, and unless and until China starts cooperating.

The fact that they were using humanized mice and playing with the spike proteins trying to infect the mice tells me:

1. That it is effectively "gain of function" research, despite what the grant says they are allowed to do. They were playing with viruses until they found a way to infect the mice. Whether the NIH approved of that, or if they did it behind their back, they still used NIH grant money to fund that research.

2. That they were doing that research, and that C19 started in Wuhan, pretty much leads to the conclusion that a lab leak occurred, if not an outright purposeful release.

[Stoic]

The fact that they were using humanized mice and playing with the spike proteins trying to infect the mice tells me:

1. That it is effectively "gain of function" research, despite what the grant says they are allowed to do. They were playing with viruses until they found a way to infect the mice. Whether the NIH approved of that, or if they did it behind their back, they still used NIH grant money to fund that research.

I think a reasonable case can be made that it was not "gain of function" research, which is why you won't see EcoHealth Alliance punished for it, much less Fauci charged with lying to congress.

2. That they were doing that research, and that C19 started in Wuhan, pretty much leads to the conclusion that a lab leak occurred, if not an outright purposeful release.

I suspect that the experiment was done using processes that are indistinguishable from those that actually occur in nature, so it will be hard to prove conclusively that the virus didn't come about naturally. (Perhaps an expert could confirm or disconfirm that.) But it would be a pretty amazing coincidence if the virus did come about naturally.

[seanD]

I think a reasonable case can be made that it was not "gain of function" research, which is why you won't see EcoHealth Alliance punished for it, much less Fauci charged with lying to congress.


I suspect that the experiment was done using processes that are indistinguishable from those that actually occur in nature, so it will be hard to prove conclusively that the virus didn't come about naturally. (Perhaps an expert could confirm or disconfirm that.) But it would be a pretty amazing coincidence if the virus did come about naturally.

Even if you were right, I'm not at all surprised a viral expert like Fauci would use semantics and strategies to avoid technical illegalities like that. But it doesn't take anything away from the fact he's apparently involved in a global mass death event, juxtaposed with the fact the left (such as yourself) is treating him like he's a hero. And I suspect no criminal charges will be brought against him because the left who adores him controls the MSM and currently controls the politics.

[Stoic]

Even if you were right, I'm not at all surprised a viral expert like Fauci would use semantics and strategies to avoid technical illegalities like that.

Because that's just what viral experts are like?

But it doesn't take anything away from the fact he's apparently involved in a global mass death event, juxtaposed with the fact the left (such as yourself) is treating him like he's a hero.

Of course he's involved, as Director of the NIAID since the Reagan administration, a member of the White House Coronavirus Task Force under Trump, and Chief Medical Advisor to the President under Biden.

If you are claiming that he helped cause it, you've got a bit to prove. First, that he played a significant role in getting the money to EcoHealth Alliance that was used for research in Wuhan, and second, that that research resulted in the creation of SARS-CoV-2.

I'm pretty sure the NIAID has a process for deciding whether to issue grants, and it's not just the Director handing out money as he sees fit. And while SARS-CoV-2 looks suspiciously like it could have been the result of experiments similar to what's been published, it would have to have been created from coronaviruses that they have kept secret.

And I suspect no criminal charges will be brought against him because the left who adores him controls the MSM and currently controls the politics.

Well, there's that, but the left would turn on him pretty quickly if you came up with actual evidence that he's guilty of something.

[seanD]

Because that's just what viral experts are like?


Of course he's involved, as Director of the NIAID since the Reagan administration, a member of the White House Coronavirus Task Force under Trump, and Chief Medical Advisor to the President under Biden.

If you are claiming that he helped cause it, you've got a bit to prove. First, that he played a significant role in getting the money to EcoHealth Alliance that was used for research in Wuhan, and second, that that research resulted in the creation of SARS-CoV-2.

I'm pretty sure the NIAID has a process for deciding whether to issue grants, and it's not just the Director handing out money as he sees fit. And while SARS-CoV-2 looks suspiciously like it could have been the result of experiments similar to what's been published, it would have to have been created from coronaviruses that they have kept secret.


Well, there's that, but the left would turn on him pretty quickly if you came up with actual evidence that he's guilty of something.

You mean the left would turn on him as "quickly" as they did from covering up the lab leak theory to accepting it as a possibility (though with outlets still claiming it's a rightwing conspiracy theory)? That took about a year as I recall and only because Redfield and cnn darling Gupta opened up the can of worms on national TV, so they were pretty much forced to concede it as a possibility. That as well as your post gives me no hope we'll ever get the bottom of it, hence the reason Fauci and his group of criminals will get away with it scot free.

[Stoic]

You mean the left would turn on him as "quickly" as they did from covering up the lab leak theory to accepting it as a possibility (though with outlets still claiming it's a rightwing conspiracy theory)? That took about a year as I recall and only because Redfield and cnn darling Gupta opened up the can of worms on national TV, so they were pretty much forced to concede it as a possibility. That as well as your post gives me no hope we'll ever get the bottom of it, hence the reason Fauci and his group of criminals will get away with it scot free.

If Trump can get away with all his crimes, I guess that's only fair.

[seanD]

If Trump can get away with all his crimes, I guess that's only fair.

Yes, because the "crimes" you allege are somehow equivalent to being responsible for millions of deaths around the globe and totally turning western society upside down, and then having a nerve to act like you're some kind of hero saving the planet. That type of derangement is why I KNOW we'll never get to the bottom of it.

[Stoic]

Yes, because the "crimes" you allege are somehow equivalent to being responsible for millions of deaths around the globe and totally turning western society upside down, and then having a nerve to act like you're some kind of hero saving the planet. That type of derangement is why I KNOW we'll never get to the bottom of it.

No. Because by your standards, you don't have to know what crimes he's committed, much less have convincing evidence for them, in order to accuse him of having committed crimes.

[seanD]

I don't know much about the Telegraph and how credible they are, as if we really needed an article like this to spell out the obvious (bold emphasis mine)...

All but one scientist who penned a letter in The Lancet dismissing the possibility that coronavirus could have come from a lab in Wuhan were linked to its Chinese researchers, their colleagues or funders, a Telegraph investigation can reveal.

The influential journal published a letter on March 7 last year from 27 scientists in which they stated that they “strongly condemned conspiracy theories” surrounding Covid-19.
It effectively shut down scientific debate into whether coronavirus was manipulated or leaked from a lab in Wuhan.

On Friday, researchers who tried to investigate a link but were stonewalled and branded conspiracy theorists called it an “extreme cover-up”.

Despite declaring no conflicts of interest at the time, it has since emerged that the letter was orchestrated by British zoologist Peter Daszak, president of the US-based EcoHealth Alliance, which funded research at the Wuhan Institute of Virology, where the leak was suspected.

However, The Telegraph can disclose that 26 of the 27 scientists listed in the letter had connections to the Chinese lab, through researchers and funders closely linked to Wuhan.

While Mr Daszak eventually declared his involvement in the EcoHealth Alliance, he failed to mention that five other signatories also worked for the organisation.

A further three of the signatories were from Britain’s Wellcome Trust, which has funded work at the Wuhan Institute of Virology in the past.

Sir Jeremy Farrar, a member of Sage and the director of the Trust, who signed the letter, has also published work with George Gao, the head of the Chinese Centre for Disease Control and Prevention, whom he describes as an “old friend”.

Researchers and their links to China

Oxford-educated Dr Gao is a former Wellcome research assistant, and Mr Daszak has previously claimed Dr Gao had supported his nomination to the National Academy of Sciences.

Dr Gao also has close connections with Shi Zhengli, the scientist known as “batwoman” who was leading research into bat coronaviruses in Wuhan, and whose team discovered a virus in 2013 in a cave in Yunnan which is the closest ever found to Sars-Cov-2.

Another signatory, Prof Linda Saif, of Ohio State University, spoke at a workshop in Wuhan in May 2017 alongside Dr Shi and Dr Gao, organised partly by the Wuhan Institute of Virology. Topics discussed at the meeting included the level of security in Chinese labs. Prof Saif’s talk dealt with animal coronaviruses.

Similarly, two other signatories are in the leadership team of the Global Virome Project, of which Mr Daszak is treasurer. Dr Gao helped launch the project and EcoHealth Alliance is a partner.

The Global Virome Project’s goal is to detect and identify at least 99 per cent of potential zoonotic viral threats to human health and food security. It took over from the Predict project, which uncovered more than 1,000 unique viruses in animals and humans.

However, it has since emerged that Predict part-funded controversial work by Wuhan researchers on bat coronaviruses which were altered to see if they could infect humans. The funds came via EcoHealth Alliance.

In an email on Feb 8, released under Freedom of Information requests, Mr Daszak revealed he had composed the letter after being asked by “our collaborators” in China for a “show of support”.

Angus Dalgleish, professor of oncology at St Georges, University of London, and Norwegian scientist Birger Sorensen, who struggled to have work published showing a link between the virus and Wuhan research, said there had been an “extreme cover-up”.

Fauci's team of scientists working in collusion with the CCP to cover this up sounds perfectly plausible.

[Mountain Man]

Fauci's team of scientists working in collusion with the CCP to cover this up sounds perfectly plausible.

Not only plausible but almost certain at this point.

[seanD]

Not only plausible but almost certain at this point.

Best case scenario is that these are bordering on treasonous actions, if not outright mass murder. You don't help cover something up that isn't a crime.

[Sparko]

I think a reasonable case can be made that it was not "gain of function" research, which is why you won't see EcoHealth Alliance punished for it, much less Fauci charged with lying to congress.


I suspect that the experiment was done using processes that are indistinguishable from those that actually occur in nature, so it will be hard to prove conclusively that the virus didn't come about naturally. (Perhaps an expert could confirm or disconfirm that.) But it would be a pretty amazing coincidence if the virus did come about naturally.

I am sure that is exactly what Fauci is doing, using semantics to deny that they were actually dong "gain of function" research at Wuhan. Also he made sure to mention that it didn't occur at the "Wuhan Viral Lab" while probably knowing it actually occurred at the nearby Wuhan university lab which had even poorer safeguards in place.

So yeah I think Fauci played semantic word games to avoid outright "lying" while still misleading congress.

[Stoic]

I am sure that is exactly what Fauci is doing, using semantics to deny that they were actually dong "gain of function" research at Wuhan. Also he made sure to mention that it didn't occur at the "Wuhan Viral Lab" while probably knowing it actually occurred at the nearby Wuhan university lab which had even poorer safeguards in place.

I'm not sure what you are talking about. No one can say for sure that it wasn't a lab leak, and I don't think a leak from any particular lab has been ruled out.

Fauci did claim that the viruses created under the NIAID contract did not cause the pandemic, and that's not really in question.

[Mountain Man]

Fauci did claim that the viruses created under the NIAID contract did not cause the pandemic...

Fauci the Fraud has a well documented history of saying a lot of things that have turned out to be not exactly true, so he's not a credible source.