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Contraception, Conscientious objectors, and the American conscience

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  • Contraception, Conscientious objectors, and the American conscience

    Maybe it is fitting that the greatest issue on the practical, as well as the theoretical limits on religious liberty, perhaps the essential liberty, hangs on the question of who pays for a woman's hormone pills.

    The Little Sisters of the Poor, the radical sect of malcontents who continually challenge Leviathan and forcing our benign government back to the Supreme Court is making a career out of obstructionism. Instead of being doers of good things, they are the manipulators of the law wasting the Courts time.

    We do allow small, hard working, job providers some relief from the financial burden, Exxon and Pepsi are exempted from the costly provisions of providing financial support for the pill.

    Cassius Clay dodged the draft then proceeded to waste the courts time, forcing on the American conscience the Mohammad Ali who is hailed as a conscientious objector.

    Once upon a time, we in America know how to deal with these malcontents: Bull Conner, German Shepherds, and fire hoses, the great trinity of political stability. It was effective then, I say bring them back, those were the good old days

    Is the highest court of this great nation the venue for moral claims, the arbiter of ethics, the shaper of the conscience? Charles Colson once wrote a book highly critical of the Christian church entitled Who Speaks for God?. Now he has his answer, the Supremes!

    Here I will supply a link to reading material: https://www.crisismagazine.com/2020/...me-court-again as per the custom (the two part custom: OP refers to an article, then everyone expresses surprise that the topic has anything to do with the article)

  • #2
    At the risk of drawing ire of CP, I will add a question based on the article, which states that Americans recognize the stand of Mohammed Ali on the draft as heroic, honoring Ali for his struggle. It also states that Americans will recognize the struggle of the Little Sisters as heroic and honorable.

    Do you think that American sentiment will shift? I ask because it has two parts, the religious liberty part of following a government mandate which violates (religiously inspired) conscience, or the arrogant assertion that they are correct in their assertions about morality of contraception. (and it is the purchase of female contraception, not male contraception at issue here!)

    And yes, I do call it an arrogant assertion. Once someone makes a stand, asserting a division between right and wrong, it is inherently divisive, and the dividing line runs right down the middle of the Body of Christ. Except that it is not down the middle which implies dividing into two similarly sized parts. It is a minority position within the Body of Christ and within society.

    It is in effect,"needlessly dividing the Body of Christ" creating divisions and being divisive; declaring to be sinful what others declare to be good.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by simplicio View Post
      At the risk of drawing ire of CP...
      My ire ran out many years ago.
      "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

      Comment


      • #4
        Trying to parse your posts is like trying to untangle a ball of yarn after the cat has been playing with it for a week.

        As a Catholic why are you against nuns who don't want to hand out free contraceptives?

        Why should insurance pay for free contraceptives anyway? Why doesn't the government make them pay for much more critical drugs that people's actual lives depend on, like insulin? Shouldn't that be more of a priority than contraceptives, which are pretty cheap to begin with and it's even cheaper to abstain?
        Last edited by Sparko; 02-13-2020, 11:38 AM.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by seer View Post
          Why do you hate Jews so much?
          Why do you hate women too, simplicio?
          Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            Trying to parse your posts is like trying to untangle a ball of yarn after the cat has been playing with it for a week.

            As a Catholic why are you against nuns who don't want to hand out free contraceptives?
            I thought that the sarcasm was over the top and obvious. Those nuns, who wear a habit are hardly radical malcontents, Exxon and Pepsico are hardly small firms, I am not really advocating Bull Connor tactics of using dogs and firehoses on those nuns. I guess it wasn't obvious enough, even though almost each sentence contained absudity. And no, I do not view the Supreme Court as a prophetic voice.

            Why should insurance pay for free contraceptives anyway? Why doesn't the government make them pay for much more critical drugs that people's actual lives depend on, like insulin? Shouldn't that be more of a priority than contraceptives, which are pretty cheap to begin with and it's even cheaper to abstain?
            I agree, Sparko.

            The one part of the OP which I was serious, is what I see as a massive incongruity of the pill becoming the acid test for religious liberty. The Catholic Church stands almost alone among churches in rejection of the pill, yet lay Catholics do not follow it, in general, while the Protestant groups accept the pill support the church in this, even the pro life churches which will not march with the Catholics (if the march is associated with a local Catholic church).

            The nuns in their habits are not really religious according to the state, they operate their business enterprises as parachurch, not a church. One way to hold on to their core beliefs is to abandon their mission. States who offer contracxeption find it important that the nuns also supply the pill and abortifacients.

            The separation between church and state has the churches vainly attempting to get the governent to sweep aside abortion, and the government id trying to force religion to get into the abortion business.

            And a group of nuns is walking point on this (get it? when soldiers walk patrol, someone takes the point, or forward most spot, the most important spot and most dangerous)

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            • #7
              Originally posted by simplicio View Post
              . The Catholic Church stands almost alone among churches in rejection of the pill, yet lay Catholics do not follow it, in general
              Yes, how pathetic, they reject their own Magisterium.
              Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                I thought that the sarcasm was over the top and obvious. Those nuns, who wear a habit are hardly radical malcontents, Exxon and Pepsico are hardly small firms, I am not really advocating Bull Connor tactics of using dogs and firehoses on those nuns. I guess it wasn't obvious enough, even though almost each sentence contained absudity. And no, I do not view the Supreme Court as a prophetic voice.
                Like I said your posts are hard to parse. I was not sure if you were being sarcastic or not. I find most of your posts absurd and over the top, so this was not much different



                I agree, Sparko.



                The one part of the OP which I was serious, is what I see as a massive incongruity of the pill becoming the acid test for religious liberty. The Catholic Church stands almost alone among churches in rejection of the pill, yet lay Catholics do not follow it, in general, while the Protestant groups accept the pill support the church in this, even the pro life churches which will not march with the Catholics (if the march is associated with a local Catholic church).
                In my town the Catholic and Protestant churches do come together for pro-life issues. I have never seen a march, but they cooperate on women's clinics and protests.


                The nuns in their habits are not really religious according to the state, they operate their business enterprises as parachurch, not a church. One way to hold on to their core beliefs is to abandon their mission. States who offer contracxeption find it important that the nuns also supply the pill and abortifacients.
                Since they are celibate who are they going to supply them to? The issue is insurance right? So it would only affect those on the catholic healthcare insurance which would be the nuns in this case. I don't think there is any law saying they have to hand out free pills to the public, is there?

                The separation between church and state has the churches vainly attempting to get the governent to sweep aside abortion, and the government id trying to force religion to get into the abortion business.

                And a group of nuns is walking point on this (get it? when soldiers walk patrol, someone takes the point, or forward most spot, the most important spot and most dangerous)

                Comment


                • #9
                  There are legitimate medical purposes(acne, lack of cycles, PCOS) for the Pill, but I have no clue how they could differentiate between medically necessary reasons and the main purpose.
                  If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    Like I said your posts are hard to parse. I was not sure if you were being sarcastic or not. I find most of your posts absurd and over the top, so this was not much different








                    In my town the Catholic and Protestant churches do come together for pro-life issues. I have never seen a march, but they cooperate on women's clinics and protests.

                    Since they are celibate who are they going to supply them to? The issue is insurance right? So it would only affect those on the catholic healthcare insurance which would be the nuns in this case. I don't think there is any law saying they have to hand out free pills to the public, is there?



                    The distinction between church or religion and a religious ministry is the latest front in this battle. The Littler sisters operate nursing homes and have employees. Since they are not a church in and of themselves they cannot opt out of the female contraception mandate, much like the baker thing. If the bakery was a real church, it would not have been such a controversy. This is third time at the bench.

                    Many Catholic churches, like the one where I used to live, could not depend on the staunchest pro life churches to stand with them locally, the anticatholic thing. Randall Terry of the old Operation Rescue had to do a lot of explaining to do for evangelicals to stand with the Catholics on the pro life line at the clinics. It is weakening now, but there are churches who will not stand with Catholics in public.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      Like I said your posts are hard to parse. I was not sure if you were being sarcastic or not. I find most of your posts absurd and over the top, so this was not much different
                      I could tell he was sarcastic, I just couldn't figure out what his point was supposed to be.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
                        I could tell he was sarcastic, I just couldn't figure out what his point was supposed to be.
                        Note the opening line, typically called the topic sentence, questions the practical and theoretical limits of liberty, using the test case heading to Court. Each of the following phrases juxtaposes contradictory ideas (Leviathan and benign government, the frail and elderly nuns upholding the most conservative of values as radical malcontents, Bull Conner, german shepherds and firehoses as a trinity of social stability).

                        The following post is not sarcastic, rather it lays out some unresolved issues, both of the secular world and within Christianity. "sentiment" does not mean sentimentality and unicorns, rather it deals with basic beliefs and worldviews.

                        This series of Court cases is steeped in questions of constitutional law and the conflicting views of Christians on sexual ethics as well as the alignment of positive law with Christian ethics. The Church has been dealing with the question of whether error has rights for centuries, and that question is what we have today. There will be no "victory" possible with this, the unresolved questions will merely be kicked down the road.

                        Does error have rights?

                        The sad part is if advocated the stoning of dems, atheists, or liberals, then it would have been clear.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                          Note the opening line, typically called the topic sentence, questions the practical and theoretical limits of liberty, using the test case heading to Court. Each of the following phrases juxtaposes contradictory ideas (Leviathan and benign government, the frail and elderly nuns upholding the most conservative of values as radical malcontents, Bull Conner, german shepherds and firehoses as a trinity of social stability).

                          The following post is not sarcastic, rather it lays out some unresolved issues, both of the secular world and within Christianity. "sentiment" does not mean sentimentality and unicorns, rather it deals with basic beliefs and worldviews.

                          This series of Court cases is steeped in questions of constitutional law and the conflicting views of Christians on sexual ethics as well as the alignment of positive law with Christian ethics. The Church has been dealing with the question of whether error has rights for centuries, and that question is what we have today. There will be no "victory" possible with this, the unresolved questions will merely be kicked down the road.

                          Does error have rights?

                          The sad part is if advocated the stoning of dems, atheists, or liberals, then it would have been clear.
                          Maybe if you didn't use a $100 word where a $5 one would do? I am a simple, country pirate. I don't go in for all that fancy jawin'.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            Maybe if you didn't use a $100 word where a $5 one would do? I am a simple, country pirate. I don't go in for all that fancy jawin'.
                            Abortion is not explicitly in view here, the word occurs nowhere. Might want to take out a loan, because many of the same concepts common to the abortion debate is found in this topic.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                              Abortion is not explicitly in view here, the word occurs nowhere. Might want to take out a loan, because many of the same concepts common to the abortion debate is found in this topic.
                              I was commenting on why I have a hard time parsing your posts and thinking you are serious when you meant to be ironic.

                              I know I didn't use any big words in my last post yet you responded about something I didn't even mention. Are you reading my posts in some parallel universe or something?

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