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The blue-state exodus gains momentum

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  • #46
    Originally posted by JimL View Post
    Yep, I think that's what conservatives have dubbed "American exceptionalism."
    That used to be something that the left also believed in, and it wasn't even conservatives who came up with it. Or even an American.

    That phrase actually has an interesting history that few today realize:

    Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism


    The theory of the exceptionalism of the U.S. has developed over time and can be traced to many sources. French political scientist and historian Alexis de Tocqueville was the first writer to describe the country as "exceptional" in 1831 and 1840. The actual phrase "American exceptionalism" was originally coined by Soviet leader Joseph Stalin in 1929 as a critique of a revisionist faction of American communists who argued that the American political climate was unique, making it an 'exception' to certain elements of Marxist theory.


    Source

    © Copyright Original Source


    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Starlight View Post
      You read the craziest fantasy articles.

      Higher tax rates (aka 'big government') correlate with increased reported happiness on average, both among US states, and among OECD countries...

      [ATTACH=CONFIG]42062[/ATTACH]

      [ATTACH=CONFIG]42064[/ATTACH]

      (Note the axes are different in those two graphs - happiest and highest taxed is bottom-right on first, and top-right on second)

      There are many things that contribute to happiness and success in a country or state, but overall, higher taxes appear to be among the things that make countries or states more successful and their citizens happier (note: because those taxes are spent on things that benefit people, I'm not suggesting that the act of paying taxes itself makes anyone happy). The happiest countries in the world are Finland Denmark and their taxes are the highest in the OECD at ~45% of GDP.

      Research shows that even rich people are happier in those countries with higher taxes. I guess having governments that spend more on their people and help the needy makes for a nicer society where rich people actually enjoy their lives more and that this more than offsets the pain of higher taxes.
      Look how happy they are in California!!!





      Maybe they aren't being taxed enough.


      By the way your state tax chart is complete BS.

      It shows California with one of the lowest state income tax rates and Nebraska with the highest. California's income tax rate (top marginal 13%) is higher than Nebraska's (6.8%) - and Texas is shown with one of the higher tax rates when it has NO STATE INCOME TAX at all.

      https://www.thebalance.com/state-inc...-rates-3193320
      Last edited by Sparko; 01-13-2020, 07:08 AM.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by DivineOb View Post
        So someone smarter than me can give a more refined definition. The more relevant part is the idea that you become decoupled from the conerns and worries of "the many" which captures my point more clearly.

        I am really puzzled where I wrote "fat cat," though. Maybe you can help me out?



        That's a good question, isn't it? I'm just a computer scientist, not a political one.



        Sorry to let you down.
        Nothing stopping you from donating more money to the IRS than you owe.

        As a lawyer you should be making more than most people do (unless you are just an associate right now) and even more as you get older. You will BE one of the 1% richest in the USA, so the money that the government will be taking away from you will be going to those like Teal who need it. But why not just donate more? You can give as much as you want.

        But in reality, much of the taxes don't go to the poor. They go to military spending, infrastructure and to line the pockets of the politicians.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          Look how happy they are in California!!!





          Maybe they aren't being taxed enough.


          By the way your state tax chart is complete BS.

          It shows California with one of the lowest state income tax rates and Nebraska with the highest. California's income tax rate (top marginal 13%) is higher than Nebraska's (6.8%) - and Texas is shown with one of the higher tax rates when it has NO STATE INCOME TAX at all.

          https://www.thebalance.com/state-inc...-rates-3193320
          What?!? Don't tell me that star has posted yet another bogus chart.

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            What?!? Don't tell me that star has posted yet another bogus chart.
            Either that or it is counting taxes in some non-obvious way. He didn't provide a source.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by DivineOb View Post
              So glad you asked. Something along these lines


              "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."
              You know from whence cometh the "Blessings of Liberty", yes?
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                Nothing stopping you from donating more money to the IRS than you owe.
                Do you think that's a good rejoinder? I consider it on par with "Clinton killed Harvey Weinstein" or somesuch.


                As a lawyer you should be making more than most people do (unless you are just an associate right now) and even more as you get older. You will BE one of the 1% richest in the USA, so the money that the government will be taking away from you will be going to those like Teal who need it. But why not just donate more? You can give as much as you want.
                I'm not a lawyer but I make good amount of money. I'm so lucky to have been born at the right time in the right place with the right family to get me into computers which just happened to be my passion. Perfect storm. Same with my brother. I don't think I'll ever hit the 1% though without getting another promotion and I don't see that in the cards.

                But I've voted for plenty of tax increases which hit me. And I'll do it again because that's how I give back to the system which has so richly rewarded me just for doing what I love. (Don't vomit when I write this) Paying taxes is patriotic despite what Trump says.

                But in reality, much of the taxes don't go to the poor. They go to military spending, infrastructure and to line the pockets of the politicians.
                The ACA was a big tax increase for me and I don't benefit from it (at least not directly) but I gladly pay it because I know that there are millions for whom it was a lifeline. I don't like spending so much on the military but I'm not as against it as you might think. I've seen enough explanation of why it's so high (e.g. salaries make up a huge chunk and you can't do much about those) and what we get in exchange for it. Aircraft carriers ain't cheap :).

                If you think corruption is such a problem why don't we look at other countries where it is less of an issue and implement some of their reforms? Honest question. DEMAND MORE!
                Last edited by DivineOb; 01-13-2020, 10:43 AM.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  Look how happy they are in California!!!
                  Plenty of meth addicts in red states. Should I post pictures of them and laugh and point like Jesus would have?

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                    That’s a loaded question because it doesn’t answer what I asked. How are you defining too much vs too little taxes? How are you defining rich vs poor? How are you defining essential government service vs unessential? You have quite a bit of opinion, but very little, in terms of hard facts, to define it.
                    LPoT,

                    I thought about it and I think you deserve a better answer than I gave yesterday.

                    I don't know how to define those things. I'm a computer scientist not a politician or an economist. But I think I can still comment more generally. Are you familiar with the "line drawing fallacy"? It says that just because we can't clearly define where the line on something is that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

                    Let me illustrate with the not at all incendiary topic of abortion (but which I think illustrates things clearly). I believe it is permissible to get an abortion one nanosecond after the egg is fertilized. I also believe it is wrong to get an abortion one nanosecond before the baby is born. Where is the line at which it goes from right to wrong? I don't know. But we can still debate and help shrink the range within which we think that line exists. Make sense?

                    From the animation I posted you can see that the richest 400 individuals are paying *less* in taxes than at any time in the last 70 years. Bezos made $215 million per day last year! Surely you agree that the more money you make the more you should pay, right? Both because it "hurts" less when you have more (If you gave me a $1000 tax cut / increase it would not impact my standard of living at all) and because they benefit more from the society than those with less (I own real estate. Surely you agree I benefit more from the police than someone who only rents a room). Do we agree on these things?

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      Nothing stopping you from donating more money to the IRS than you owe.
                      Originally posted by DivineOb View Post
                      Do you think that's a good rejoinder? I consider it on par with "Clinton killed Harvey Weinstein" or somesuch.
                      Actually, this has come up in the past, and we even had one particular Twebber who declared "there is no mechanism to give money to the government", which was quickly and painlessly refuted as false.

                      When liberals, in general, talk about redistribution of wealth, they often cite is a necessary on behalf of the government because, they allege, you can't just volunteer giving money to the government.

                      You can, indeed, voluntarily give as much money to the government as you'd like.

                      And I only point that out because you're comparing an actual fact with a conspiracy theory claim.
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by DivineOb View Post
                        Plenty of meth addicts in red states. Should I post pictures of them and laugh and point like Jesus would have?
                        Wow. I'm not sure you could find a more non-relevant comparison if you tried. Drug abuse, including meth use and the opioid crisis are problems virtually everywhere. Tent cities full of homeless and having to avoid human excrement when you walk down a sidewalk... not so much.

                        Fail better.

                        I'm always still in trouble again

                        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          Actually, this has come up in the past, and we even had one particular Twebber who declared "there is no mechanism to give money to the government", which was quickly and painlessly refuted as false.

                          When liberals, in general, talk about redistribution of wealth, they often cite is a necessary on behalf of the government because, they allege, you can't just volunteer giving money to the government.

                          You can, indeed, voluntarily give as much money to the government as you'd like.

                          And I only point that out because you're comparing an actual fact with a conspiracy theory claim.
                          Sorry for not being clear. Of course you can pay more than you owe. I did it before and am now working to get the money back (well, it's more complicated than that but I doubt you want to hear about my tax woes :)).

                          My point is Sparko's response is just weak sauce.
                          Last edited by DivineOb; 01-13-2020, 11:37 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            Wow. I'm not sure you could find a more non-relevant comparison if you tried. Drug abuse, including meth use and the opioid crisis are problems virtually everywhere. Tent cities full of homeless and having to avoid human excrement when you walk down a sidewalk... not so much.

                            Fail better.
                            Plenty of red states with tent cities list.

                            Red, blue, and purple states all have meth problems.

                            Do you agree that Jesus would point and laugh at the homeless?

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              Actually, this has come up in the past, and we even had one particular Twebber who declared "there is no mechanism to give money to the government", which was quickly and painlessly refuted as false.

                              When liberals, in general, talk about redistribution of wealth, they often cite is a necessary on behalf of the government because, they allege, you can't just volunteer giving money to the government.

                              You can, indeed, voluntarily give as much money to the government as you'd like.

                              And I only point that out because you're comparing an actual fact with a conspiracy theory claim.
                              It's amazing how rich liberals say that the rich don't ever pay enough in taxes never seem to take advantage of this opportunity and pay what they think is their fair share[1]. Instead they generally seek out every deduction that their lawyers can find so as to pay as little as possible[2].

                              One of the most noted examples is Warren Buffet who is a class A hypocrite when it comes to this.

                              Remember when Warren Buffet infamously complained that he was paying a lower rate than his secretary[3]? Aside from dishonestly obfuscating things by deliberately confusing tax rates on capital gains and income (like he didn't know better ) it turned out that Buffet has actually done everything possible to avoid paying taxes that he actually owes.

                              For instance, his own company, Berkshire Hathaway[4], is doing everything it can to avoid paying taxes and actually owed nearly a Billion dollars in back taxes dating back to 2002. Another one of his companies was involved in a 14-year fight with the IRS over a dividend-received deduction that was finally settled in 2005. And he is also deeply involved in the purchase of Tim Horton's by Burger King so that the latter can move its offices to Canada in order to pay far less in taxes.

                              Liberals are also increasingly notorious for showing their generosity by giving away other people's money while holding tightly on to their own. And if they're a politician they cheerfully raise tax rates never intending to pay them (see Charlie Rangel, Tom Daschle and Timothy Geithner as a short list of examples).

                              They are great at demanding that taxes be increased and then not paying them. That's for the suckers. And if they get caught they are allowed to simply pay what they were supposed to have paid in the first place -- no interest or penalties. Like an interest free loan.







                              1. Joe Biden even proclaimed that paying more in taxes is the "patriotic" thing to do.

                              2. IIRC, the government actually closed down the office that was in charge of handling money donated by those who keep saying that they would be glad to pay more tax or say that they should be paying more in taxes, due to nobody doing so.

                              3. It should be noted that his secretary's salary puts her well into the one percenters herself.

                              4. Which Buffet is the principle shareholder of (32.4%) as well as its chairman, president and CEO.

                              I'm always still in trouble again

                              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by DivineOb View Post
                                Plenty of red states with tent cities list.
                                I saw one on your list. Texas. The rest are purple or blue.

                                ETA: Oops. Two. Tennessee

                                Originally posted by DivineOb View Post
                                Red, blue, and purple states all have meth problems.
                                Thank you for confirming what I said.

                                Originally posted by DivineOb View Post
                                Do you agree that Jesus would point and laugh at the homeless?
                                For the sarcastically impaired the following is said in jest

                                Obviously



                                Btw, can you please direct me to anyone here who has?
                                Last edited by rogue06; 01-13-2020, 11:35 AM.

                                I'm always still in trouble again

                                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                                Comment

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