The blue-state exodus gains momentum

[Sparko]

In California we raised taxes on the rich *and that didn't happen*!'

1. I laugh! How many Silicon Valley manufacturers have outsourced their manufacturing to places like China and their support to India?

2. If that is true then why hasn't California used that money to help the poor?

There was outright fraud by the rating agencies where they rated absolute junk as solid gold.

Yep. But we are talking about taxing rich people. Do you think all rich people are con men and frauds? And again, the people who defrauded on their loans and caused the recession itself were middleclass borrowers who took loans they should have known they couldn't pay back. And OBAMA let the banks off the hook. This wasn't a case of rich people as a class getting richer off of poor people's labor.

Divide et impera. Our enemies want those voices to be the loudest so we are at each others' throats instead of coming together as Americans on the vast majority of issues were we agree. Who benefits from a country as divided as it is? Those who want a weak America and those who want to rob us blind while we aren't watching. They want us paralyzed with mutual distrust and unable to stop them. Don't believe me? Why do we have a $1 trillion deficit during an indisputably strong economy?

Who are these enemies? I think they are the democrats who WANT people dependent on government. And it's the liberals (mostly young as you mention) who are the vocal ones for socialism and robbing the rich to give to the "poor" while sitting around playing on their $1000 iPhones.

[Sparko]

And they benefitted the ultra rich far in excess of what you got from it. And many of the benefits to the middle class will go away within 8 years whereas the benefits to the ultra rich are permanent.

Those "ultra rich" people like the company I work for who got record profits last year and gave us great raises and huge profit sharing bonuses?

[DivineOb]

1. I laugh! How many Silicon Valley manufacturers have outsourced their manufacturing to places like China and their support to India?

Yeah, why did they go to those places instead of red states where taxes are much lower?

2. If that is true then why hasn't California used that money to help the poor?

I'm sure they have. I don't know the details of how that issue is handled. If they are lousing it up then that sounds like a problem.

Yep. But we are talking about taxing rich people. Do you think all rich people are con men and frauds?

Quote me where there is even a scintilla of evidence I think that.

And again, the people who defrauded on their loans and caused the recession itself were middleclass borrowers who took loans they should have known they couldn't pay back. And OBAMA let the banks off the hook. This wasn't a case of rich people as a class getting richer off of poor people's labor.

Defaulting on a loan is not fraud. Just ask Trump. No, I don't think people should take loans they can't repay. That's why I didn't buy a new house when prices were crazy and cleaned up afterwards ;).

Why did Obama help the banks? "Too big to fail" is a thing. If he didn't do it right (and me might not have) then I'm on your side.

Who are these enemies?

Russia is chief among them. Romney called it right in his debate with Obama.

I think they are the democrats who WANT people dependent on government. And it's the liberals (mostly young as you mention) who are the vocal ones for socialism and robbing the rich to give to the "poor" while sitting around playing on their $1000 iPhones.

Where do you get these ideas? From real Americans or from far right news sources? Do you, generally (i.e. outside a slip last night), see me characterizing you folks like you imagine left wing sources characterize Trump supporters? You don't because doing so is just going to further divide the country at a time of unprecedented challenge.

[DivineOb]

Those "ultra rich" people like the company I work for who got record profits last year and gave us great raises and huge profit sharing bonuses?

Great! I'm happy for you! Aren't you sad that the benefits from the tax bill will go away for the middle class but remain for the ultra rich? How is that, dare I say, fair?

[Cow Poke]

Here is what I said didn't happen

The rich would find ways to take their money off-shore, businesses would close down, unemployment would rise.

But I can amend what I said to say that raising taxes on the right appears to be a net win overall.



It's putting the WSJ conclusions in proper context. Regardless so far California is continuing to run a budget surplus unlike states which cut taxes to the bone like Kansas (I know they raised taxes finally so maybe it's not as bad as it used to be).

I'm a computer scientist not an economist or political scientist.

And you seem to be a decent poster, so....

[Sparko]

Yeah, why did they go to those places instead of red states where taxes are much lower?

Like Amazon moving out of Seattle to get tax breaks elsewhere? Come on DOB. Different companies react in different ways. But they all act to maximize profits. If California is taking too much, they will find ways to avoid the taxes. Moving manufacturing. Outsourcing. And places like China and India are even cheaper than "red states" - same principle though.

I'm sure they have. I don't know the details of how that issue is handled. If they are lousing it up then that sounds like a problem.

So you are just going to ignore the fact that there are freaking TENT CITIES in major california towns where homeless people live and crap in the streets?

Quote me where there is even a scintilla of evidence I think that.



Defaulting on a loan is not fraud. Just ask Trump. No, I don't think people should take loans they can't repay. That's why I didn't buy a new house when prices were crazy and cleaned up afterwards ;).

It is fraud when you know you can't or won't pay it back. Even when the bank screws up and tells you that you qualify for the loan.

Why did Obama help the banks? "Too big to fail" is a thing. If he didn't do it right (and me might not have) then I'm on your side.

You tell me. You are the one who keeps complaining about how the rich get passes and keep getting richer. Here is an example of such.

Russia is chief among them. Romney called it right in his debate with Obama.

Do you mean they are infiltrating our colleges and teaching our children to be socialist and hate capitalism or something?

Where do you get these ideas? From real Americans or from far right news sources? Do you, generally (i.e. outside a slip last night), see me characterizing you folks like you imagine left wing sources characterize Trump supporters? You don't because doing so is just going to further divide the country at a time of unprecedented challenge.

I am just saying what I see in the world DoB.

[Sparko]

Great! I'm happy for you! Aren't you sad that the benefits from the tax bill will go away for the middle class but remain for the ultra rich? How is that, dare I say, fair?

No. Because there will be other tax breaks. And again, I have benefited form my company's benefits. They passed it along to the people who do the work for them. So I will continue to benefit as long as they do.

If I don't like what they pay me or how fair they are to me, I can always go work for someone else or start my own business. This is 'Merica dammit.

[DivineOb]

Like Amazon moving out of Seattle to get tax breaks elsewhere? Come on DOB. Different companies react in different ways. But they all act to maximize profits. If California is taking too much, they will find ways to avoid the taxes. Moving manufacturing. Outsourcing. And places like China and India are even cheaper than "red states" - same principle though.

Sounds like we agree then.

So you are just going to ignore the fact that there are freaking TENT CITIES in major california towns where homeless people live and crap in the streets?

I don't have a solution to that problem. I don't know enough to offer one.

It is fraud when you know you can't or won't pay it back. Even when the bank screws up and tells you that you qualify for the loan.

But it wasn't the bank "screwing up" was it? It was the bank lending them money knowing they had no hope of paying it back. But of course it is also wrong to buy a house you can't possibly afford. I agree there was a lack of personal responsibility on all sides.

You tell me. You are the one who keeps complaining about how the rich get passes and keep getting richer. Here is an example of such.

I can't possibly research everything! But my point is that the people who engaged in fraud by rating junk as gold were not punished. And but for their actions the housing crisis would not have happened. That's as deep as we need to go.

Do you mean they are infiltrating our colleges and teaching our children to be socialist and hate capitalism or something?

No, I mean they are manipulating public opinion using social media and other means in order to drive Americans apart. If you don't believe this is happening I'll be happy to dig up plentiful evidence that it is going on. If you only believe me about one thing then believe that this is well supported and happening all around us.

I am just saying what I see in the world DoB.

Based on interactions with real Americans yourself or from the news sources you consume? Just like there are people on the right trying to manipulate us there are also people on the left doing the same. If someone spreads despair or tells you to mistrust your fellow Americans more than our known geopolitical rivals then you should take *everything* they say with a grain of salt. That's what I do.

[Sparko]

[QUOTE=DivineOb;702562]Sounds like we agree then.[.quote] uh... no. Unless I convinced you.

I don't have a solution to that problem. I don't know enough to offer one.

How about using all that money from the rich people to solve the problem? Build affordable housing, give them jobs. Oh sorry, the rich businessmen don't have enough money left to create jobs because California took it all to line the pockets of the rich politicians. Never mind.

But it wasn't the bank "screwing up" was it? It was the bank lending them money knowing they had no hope of paying it back. But of course it is also wrong to buy a house you can't possibly afford. I agree there was a lack of personal responsibility on all sides.

That was my point. It wasn't a "rich people bad, poor people good" thing, it was a total screwup by everyone.

I can't possibly research everything! But my point is that the people who engaged in fraud by rating junk as gold were not punished. And but for their actions the housing crisis would not have happened. That's as deep as we need to go.

That isn't as deep as we need to go. It was like a house of cards. Once the loans were defaulted on, everything came crashing down. Builders had been building homes like crazy, people had been buying them like crazy. Then all of a sudden we had people filing bankruptcy, entire neighborhoods sitting empty. IT was a complete mess and a lot of people to blame. But yeah the guys who started it all were never punished. Because Obama let them off the hook.

No, I mean they are manipulating public opinion using social media and other means in order to drive Americans apart. If you don't believe this is happening I'll be happy to dig up plentiful evidence that it is going on. If you only believe me about one thing then believe that this is well supported and happening all around us.

They aren't the ones doing the Occupy movement, or Antifa, or the drive to socialize everything, or "intersectionality" and "white privilege" . A lot of that started with liberal college professors indoctrinating impressionable kids. And that was going on long before Russia was playing political games on facebook.

Based on interactions with real Americans yourself or from the news sources you consume? Just like there are people on the right trying to manipulate us there are also people on the left doing the same. If someone spreads despair or tells you to mistrust your fellow Americans more than our known geopolitical rivals then you should take *everything* they say with a grain of salt. That's what I do.

Interactions with real people, even family members who have bought the sales pitch of liberalism. People right here on theologyweb. Like JimL, Tassman, Starlight.

[DivineOb]

How about using all that money from the rich people to solve the problem? Build affordable housing, give them jobs. Oh sorry, the rich businessmen don't have enough money left to create jobs because California took it all to line the pockets of the rich politicians. Never mind.

Why do you think that's where all the money is going?

That was my point. It wasn't a "rich people bad, poor people good" thing, it was a total screwup by everyone.

Ok. But the rich ones are the ones who got away without punishment, right? At least the middle class took a hit on their credit reports (still a slap on the wrist I'd say).

That isn't as deep as we need to go. It was like a house of cards. Once the loans were defaulted on, everything came crashing down. Builders had been building homes like crazy, people had been buying them like crazy. Then all of a sudden we had people filing bankruptcy, entire neighborhoods sitting empty. IT was a complete mess and a lot of people to blame. But yeah the guys who started it all were never punished. Because Obama let them off the hook.

Then Obama screwed the pooch. It wasn't the only time.

They aren't the ones doing the Occupy movement, or Antifa, or the drive to socialize everything, or "intersectionality" and "white privilege" .

Surely you know that Occupy and Antifa are fringe groups. I can point to fringe groups on the far right but don't because I know they don't represent the views of hopefully all people on this board. Despite all the rah rah Trump I hear I'm sure deep in your soul you know that some of the policies coming out of the WH are despicable. Don't worry, your secret is safe with me :).

Also I don't know what you mean when you say socializing "everything". Care to elaborate?

I am curious what your issue is with White Privilege, though. Is it that you disagree it's a thing or you disagree with "WP is a thing so X/Y/Z needs to happen"? I admit the name isn't doing it any favors at converting the unconvinced.

A lot of that started with liberal college professors indoctrinating impressionable kids.

Sounds like you need to do a better job raising your kids, member of the party of personal responsibility :).

And that was going on long before Russia was playing political games on facebook.

Maybe so. But Russia is doing tremendous damage to us today by exploiting the divisions in our society. Whether or not someone believes in White Privilege should not impact whether we view each other as fellow Americans first and foremost. Whether or not someone believes that black lives matter too should not matter. Yet here we are, viewing each other with more suspicion than some view a mass murderer like Vladimir Putin!

Interactions with real people, even family members who have bought the sales pitch of liberalism. People right here on theologyweb. Like JimL, Tassman, Starlight.

Sorry to hear about the challenges with your family. A couple of my aunts are Republicans but politics and hot button social topics don't come up (much). I do know one of those aunts who is a strong catholic has some abhorrent views.

It's not easy to accept new ideas which intuitively seem wrong. It took me a long time to accept transsexualism, and I only finally got over it once I resolved to make my family my meaning and purpose in life instead of myself and discovered that I no longer had the energy to worry about such things. In 20 years there will probably be a new thing which is a bridge too far for me. We'll have to see how I handle it.

[Tassman]

The tax cuts affected middle class more than anyone else Tassman. We have been over it before. Since Trump has been President, I have gotten a "raise" from the tax breaks and cuts, actual raises from my company along with profit sharing since they have done so well, and my 401K has doubled. And I am definitely in the middle of the middle class. Oh and my home value has increased about 30% too.

So those "huge tax breaks" for corporations have benefited me and the rest of us too.

They haven't in fact. "One year after President Trump and congressional Republicans enacted their tax cut for the wealthy and large corporations, none of their promised results are happening. While the law spurred a brief boost in economic growth, our long-term growth trajectory is unchanged. There is no sign of an investment boom. Real wage growth for workers remains modest. Factories and jobs are more likely to go overseas. The federal deficit is soaring as corporate tax receipts plummet. And the tax code is riddled with even more special-interest tax breaks and loopholes. By any measure, there is no evidence showing that the GOP tax cut is trickling down to working Americans'.

https://budget.house.gov/publication...orations-while

[lilpixieofterror]

Now that I don’t feel like death warmed over, time to dive into your post.

Sure. I agree the war on some drugs and wars of choice do little to help the average citizen. Are Republicans or Democrats more responsible for those I wonder disingenuously.

I don't want to get into programs for the poor because I really don't know much about those. If we really have spent a trillion on that over 50 years then it sounds like a bargain compared to Bush's wars to enrich Cheney and blow up piles of sand.

The Middle East is a wee bit more than piles of sand, but my general point is the government is very good at spending piles of money with little to nothing to show for it.

No they haven't. Almost like that wasn't the goal.

Or the government isn’t nearly as competent as you think it is. The government is very good at spending piles of cash, results tend to be mixed.

I don't have to know exactly what is "fair" in order to be pretty sure about what is unfair. I do know that we are drowning in debt during "the best economy in history" because we are cutting taxes on the rich again and again. I also know that increasing taxes in California didn't scare the rich people away and we have had a budget surplus for years despite all the negative hype you hear about us.

I’ from California and have lots of family still there, so I know how things work there. The state is slowly turning into a two tier system where you have the rich and famous, living in luxury and everyone else. I’ll be reaching my 20 years in the military soon so we’ve crossed off ever going back to California because of the high cost of living, lack of affordable housing, and increasing crime rates. Sure, things are great if you’re among the rich, but if you’re not and want to not live an hour or two from work, it isn’t so great.

If you're not satisfied with my opinion then I'm bowing out of this because I'm a computer scientist not a political scientist or economist.

You can have whatever opinion you want, but California is great if you’re rich, not so great if you’re not.

[lilpixieofterror]

As penance for what I wrote last night I'll try to do a little more to answer LPoT's questions to me.

The reason I don't want to lay out what I think a "fair" system looks like is because the system of taxation we pursue is directed by the government and society we are pursuing. For example sin taxes both raise revenue and discourage behavior and taxing capital gains at a lower rate than income encourages investment in the slock market etc. You all know that I am quite liberal so my view of where I think society should go is probably quite different from yours in many ways. If I start laying out what my ideal society would look like (probably close to Warren's view) we'll get way off into the weeds on topics you feel very passionately about and which I have little interest in discussing.

At minimum I think a fair system of taxation requires us to pay taxes in proportion to the benefit we derive from society. A progressive income tax system addresses this fairly as we can all earn smaller amounts of money with little taxes but the taxes go up as you make more. This is fair because it isn't possible for someone to make, say, $500k per year without a whole lot of societal infrastructure. That is, you will need a healthy, well educated population, just courts, police and military protection, effective regulations, and so on. Because you can make $10k per year in a society which lacks many of those features you should be taxed at a lower rate.

If anything, history tells us that’s false because historically, society was divided between the very rich and very poor, with very little in between. Increases in infrastructure has done much to create the middle class, so if anything, I and most Americans have greatly benefited from these at least as much (if not more) than they do.

Our current system, one way or the other, allows the people at the very very very top to amass huge amounts of wealth without paying for the infrastructure they relied on to get there. I make good money but only because I had access to the best schools in the world, top notch professors to learn from, ample grant money to pay for my living expenses while in grad school, and a society where people have enough money to afford the products my company produces. If I lived in a hellhole like Liberia I couldn't make $500k (I don't make that much ) in any legal or ethical manner.

As I pointed out, the flaw in your theory is that a hand full of rich do exist in 3rd world countries. Carlos Slim Helu is one of the richest people in the world and he’s from Mexico.

How do you tax someone like Bezos who makes money by (semi ethically) inflating Amazon's stock price with buybacks? I don't know. But he couldn't make the money he makes without society shouldering a huge burden to create the system where his rise is even possible. Why didn't he start Amazon in Liberia where the tax rate is probably close to 0%? Or Russia? Because those societies haven't done the quite expensive investment necessary to create the potential for an Amazon in the first place.

As I pointed out above, that’s an opinion because many of his workers equally benefited from the stuff you mentioned.

I do think one solution for taxing the ultra wealthy is a wealth tax. When I initially heard Warren's suggestion of this I was appalled to be honest. It sounded fundamentally unAmerican to me. Then it was pointed out that property taxes are already a wealth tax and I changed my mind :).

Everyone pays property taxes, some call it an escrow account, some call it rent, others pay it directly.

[DivineOb]

If anything, history tells us that’s false because historically, society was divided between the very rich and very poor, with very little in between. Increases in infrastructure has done much to create the middle class, so if anything, I and most Americans have greatly benefited from these at least as much (if not more) than they do.

You assert that the middle class benefited more than the rich. I intuitively feel that that is false. How do we bridge this gap?

Who benefits more from a strong military? A member of the middle class or someone with lots of assets to protect?

As I pointed out, the flaw in your theory is that a hand full of rich do exist in 3rd world countries. Carlos Slim Helu is one of the richest people in the world and he’s from Mexico.

Comparing Mexico to Liberia is a bit uncharitable :). And Carlos Slim made his money off of infrastructure (phones) which was paid for by tax payers and defended by the Mexico military. I don't know his history so maybe you can enlighten me further if I'm wrong about that.

As I pointed out above, that’s an opinion because many of his workers equally benefited from the stuff you mentioned.

I doubt any single worker saw their net worth increase by anywhere close to a similar percentage to what Bezos saw. Sounds like he benefited more.

Everyone pays property taxes, some call it an escrow account, some call it rent, others pay it directly.

Who gets the bill? The property owner. Property taxes are a wealth tax on people who own property. Just because I pay rent doesn't mean I get to own part of the property even though I'm funding the mortgage payment.

[Sparko]

Why do you think that's where all the money is going?



Ok. But the rich ones are the ones who got away without punishment, right? At least the middle class took a hit on their credit reports (still a slap on the wrist I'd say).



Then Obama screwed the pooch. It wasn't the only time.

yeah Obama did.

Surely you know that Occupy and Antifa are fringe groups. I can point to fringe groups on the far right but don't because I know they don't represent the views of hopefully all people on this board. Despite all the rah rah Trump I hear I'm sure deep in your soul you know that some of the policies coming out of the WH are despicable. Don't worry, your secret is safe with me :).

Also I don't know what you mean when you say socializing "everything". Care to elaborate?

I mean trying to change the country to socialism. And it is not just the fringes of liberalism. We have a few congresspeople who are promoting this nonsense. Sound like you are the one living the sheltered life here.

I am curious what your issue is with White Privilege, though. Is it that you disagree it's a thing or you disagree with "WP is a thing so X/Y/Z needs to happen"? I admit the name isn't doing it any favors at converting the unconvinced.

I disagree with it. It is a convenient scapegoat that liberals use to brand white people as racist. The whole idea itself it racist.

Sounds like you need to do a better job raising your kids, member of the party of personal responsibility :).

It's not my kids I am worried about.

Maybe so. But Russia is doing tremendous damage to us today by exploiting the divisions in our society. Whether or not someone believes in White Privilege should not impact whether we view each other as fellow Americans first and foremost. Whether or not someone believes that black lives matter too should not matter. Yet here we are, viewing each other with more suspicion than some view a mass murderer like Vladimir Putin!

No Russia hasn't. They posted a few ads on facebook. The extreme liberals are the ones dividing the country and it has been going on for decades.

Sorry to hear about the challenges with your family. A couple of my aunts are Republicans but politics and hot button social topics don't come up (much). I do know one of those aunts who is a strong catholic has some abhorrent views.

It's not easy to accept new ideas which intuitively seem wrong. It took me a long time to accept transsexualism, and I only finally got over it once I resolved to make my family my meaning and purpose in life instead of myself and discovered that I no longer had the energy to worry about such things. In 20 years there will probably be a new thing which is a bridge too far for me. We'll have to see how I handle it.

Good for you. Keep drinking the koolaid and remain part of the problem.