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The blue-state exodus gains momentum

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  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    I will answer it. No. but neither is taxing them at a way higher percentage than everyone else. I am actually for a flat tax myself. I think if a rich person pays 30% and I pay 30% he is paying a lot more dollar wise than I am. Rich people also tend to be the ones who own corporations that employ a lot of people, generating jobs, creating products, and keeping the economy going.

    The American Dream used to be to get wealthy, and retire to sit on the beach. Now it seems to be to sit on the beach and tax the rich to pay for it.

    Would your version of flat tax include tax breaks (or no tax) on groceries and things poor people would need, like diapers and childcare stuff?
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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    • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      Would your version of flat tax include tax breaks (or no tax) on groceries and things poor people would need, like diapers and childcare stuff?
      I have no idea. Depends on the percentage I guess. I was just throwing it out there. I am pretty happy with the system we have now too, but I just wish it were less.

      I am just against punishing people for being rich with excessive taxes. I think if you want to be "fair" you should try to be fair to everyone.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        Because if you are trying to be "fair" someone giving the same percentage is more fair than giving the same dollar amount. It progressively gets higher in dollars the more you make.
        Doesn't sound very fair to me. Why should I pay more dollars just because I started a successful business or went to school for years while "you" (not you) just get high and mop floors?

        The intuition you rely on to conclude that a flat percentage is more fair is exactly the intuition I use to conclude that a graduated income tax is even more fair.

        We can either argue about why our arbitrary definitions of fairness is the right one or we can look at the practical needs to fund the government that we vote we want and figure out how to make that work.


        Not trolling. Many liberals today seem to think being rich is evil itself, but are fine with the rich paying them, as if they were owed the money. Remember the whole 99% Occupy thing?
        Yeah, remember when our economy got sucked into oblivion in 2008? Why would people possibly be angry some rich [individuals] getting even more rich while causing that "recession" and no one going to jail?


        And now socialists. Used to be people wanted to get rich or at least wanted to be well off and it was a goal to be strived for, not hated.
        Can you turn off Fox or wherever you're getting the idea that any significant number of Americans think "being rich is evil itself"? You're characterizing a large group of people based on a very vocal minority. And I would bet you'd agree that many of those people still have a lot of growing up to do and would probably grow out of that phase after getting more life experience.

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        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          Because if you are trying to be "fair" someone giving the same percentage is more fair than giving the same dollar amount. It progressively gets higher in dollars the more you make.
          [NOT REALLY MY POSITION]
          Doesn't sound very fair to me. Why should I pay more dollars just because I started a successful business or went to school for years while "you" (not you) just get high and mop floors?
          [END NOT REALLY MY POSITION]

          The intuition you rely on to conclude that a flat percentage is more fair is exactly the intuition I use to conclude that a graduated income tax is even more fair.

          We can either argue about why our arbitrary definitions of fairness is the right one or we can look at the practical needs to fund the government that we vote we want and figure out how to make that work.


          Not trolling. Many liberals today seem to think being rich is evil itself, but are fine with the rich paying them, as if they were owed the money. Remember the whole 99% Occupy thing?
          Yeah, remember when our economy got sucked into oblivion in 2008? Why would people possibly be angry some rich [individuals] getting even more rich while causing that "recession" and no one going to jail?


          And now socialists. Used to be people wanted to get rich or at least wanted to be well off and it was a goal to be strived for, not hated.
          Can you turn off Fox or wherever you're getting the idea that any significant number of Americans think "being rich is evil itself"? You're characterizing a large group of people based on a very vocal minority. And I would bet you'd agree that many of those people still have a lot of growing up to do and would probably grow out of that phase after getting more life experience.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            Depends on the area JimL. I think forcing $15/hour is wrong and we have had the discussion before showing where businesses have closed because they lost customers when they had to raise their prices and couldn't afford to keep as many workers or any at all.

            I do think California needs a higher minimum wage than say Alabama. I think $15/hour from $7.25 is too high of a jump. They should have started with $10. Then gradually moved up.

            When you increase the minimum wage, you increase the cost of goods across the board, which in turn means your money buys less, so by increasing wages too much you either end up with unemployment or with people at the bottom who still can't afford anything more because everything has raised in cost.
            The minimum wage when compared to the 1960's, when you take inflation into account, should be about $20 today. The graph below goes to 2016 where the minimum wage should have been $18.85 when compared to the 1960's, but the actual minimum wage in 2016 was only $7.25. You'll also notice that productivity has gone up while wages have remained stagnent until someone, the democrats, decided that something needed be done to put an end to that trend.


            http://www.epi.org/publication/the-f...es-of-inaction

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            • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
              I haven’t made min wage, since I was a teenager. In fact, only 2.3% of workers make the federal min wage or below.
              2.7% make minimum or below minimum wage and that amounts to 2.2 million people. But minimum wage is only part of the problem, the minimum wage, which is to low to begin with, doesn't take into account all of those people who are making slightly more than minimum. And keeping the minimum wage rate low tends to lower everybody elses wages as well. The point is that productivity keeps going up and yet the workers wages do not. In other words, not only have the lowly minimum wage workers earnings been stagnant but so has most every one elses been.

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              • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                2.7% make minimum or below minimum wage and that amounts to 2.2 million people. But minimum wage is only part of the problem, the minimum wage, which is to low to begin with, doesn't take into account all of those people who are making slightly more than minimum. And keeping the minimum wage rate low tends to lower everybody elses wages as well. The point is that productivity keeps going up and yet the workers wages do not. In other words, not only have the lowly minimum wage workers earnings been stagnant but so has most every one elses been.
                Most of whom, are under the age of 21 and around high school/college age. Last time I made min wage was when I was 18 and I know my military skills put me above 20 because that is what I’ve been told by employers. If you’re over the age of 30, it’s pretty unlikely you’re making min wage.
                "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

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                • Originally posted by DivineOb View Post
                  It tells me that we expect more of our government over time.
                  (ETA: Since I have to spell everything out.) And therefore we need to raise more money to fund those advancements.
                  You forget, I work for the government and I will assure you they waste gobs of money that does little to nothing to help out the average citizen. I mean, the government had spent somewhere around a trillion dollars, over the past 50 years, on the war on poverty with very little change in the poverty line. The government has also spent around that much in the drug war, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc. Have they eliminated drugs and terrorism yet?

                  Now answer my question. In your opinion would lowering the income tax on the 400 wealthiest down to 0% be "fair"?
                  You haven’t told me how you came up with what ‘fair share’ means or what percentage is ‘fair’, so I see little point in answering your questions when you don’t answer mine with anything beyond your opinion.
                  "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                  GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                    You forget, I work for the government and I will assure you they waste gobs of money that does little to nothing to help out the average citizen.
                    Sure. I agree the war on some drugs and wars of choice do little to help the average citizen. Are Republicans or Democrats more responsible for those I wonder disingenuously.

                    I don't want to get into programs for the poor because I really don't know much about those. If we really have spent a trillion on that over 50 years then it sounds like a bargain compared to Bush's wars to enrich Cheney and blow up piles of sand.


                    Have they eliminated drugs and terrorism yet?
                    No they haven't. Almost like that wasn't the goal.


                    You haven’t told me how you came up with what ‘fair share’ means or what percentage is ‘fair’, so I see little point in answering your questions when you don’t answer mine with anything beyond your opinion.
                    I don't have to know exactly what is "fair" in order to be pretty sure about what is unfair. I do know that we are drowning in debt during "the best economy in history" because we are cutting taxes on the rich again and again. I also know that increasing taxes in California didn't scare the rich people away and we have had a budget surplus for years despite all the negative hype you hear about us.

                    If you're not satisfied with my opinion then I'm bowing out of this because I'm a computer scientist not a political scientist or economist.
                    Last edited by DivineOb; 01-14-2020, 10:59 PM.

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                    • Er, DO, if you aren't sure what fair is, how do you know the existing system isn't already fair?

                      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot


                      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                      My Personal Blog

                      My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

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                      • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                        Er, DO, if you aren't sure what fair is, how do you know the existing system isn't already fair?
                        I don't know exactly what tax code would be the most fair. I do know that the current one is clearly unfairly letting the ultra rich freeload.
                        Last edited by DivineOb; 01-14-2020, 11:29 PM.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by DivineOb View Post
                          I don't know exactly what tax code would be the most fair. I do know that the current one is clearly unfairly letting the ultra rich freeload.
                          The tax code is written by rich politicians who look out for themselves.

                          Is it really so hard for Trump supporters to get this? I mean, you do think Trump is a brilliant Christian businessman
                          I think a number of us have expressed concern that we either doubt he's a Christian, or are not really convinced that he is.

                          and not a broke money launderer who laughs at you rubes once the cameras are off so perhaps my expectations are just too darn high. But I like to shoot for the stars sometimes.
                          I think you go too far with that "laughs at you rubes" nonsense. Are you really wanting an honest discussion, or is this simply your platform to express your extreme views?
                          "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            The tax code is written by rich politicians who look out for themselves.
                            So, we agree then.

                            I edited my post. That was my bad. I thought 'rube' meant something else. No, I don't think that is the right term for people on this board. Sorry Tea, LPoT, and CP.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by DivineOb View Post
                              So, we agree then.
                              One of the reasons I'm for term limits. AND against people coming back to work as lobbyists. In fact, the whole lobbying thing is problematic.

                              I edited my post. That was my bad. I thought 'rube' meant something else. No, I don't think that is the right term for people on this board. Sorry Tea, LPoT, and CP.
                              "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by DivineOb View Post
                                So, we agree then.

                                I edited my post. That was my bad. I thought 'rube' meant something else. No, I don't think that is the right term for people on this board. Sorry Tea, LPoT, and CP.
                                No prob - wouldn't have seen it if not for CP's answer and even so, pencils have erasers for a reason. We're cool.

                                "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot


                                "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                                My Personal Blog

                                My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

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