Announcement

Collapse

Civics 101 Guidelines

Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!

Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less

Christianity Today Op Ed

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
    I agree with much of this. The wealthy have the means to game the system in ways that the rest do not. And the wealthy also have greater means of actual cheating. And no, it's not okay to have an unfair advantage or to actually cheat. We should do something about this.

    But taxation won't solve it. The wealthy have one very big ace - mobility. They can not only move to another state; they can also move to another country.

    I've seen charts indicating that the US government collects about 17 percent of GDP regardless of the tax rate. If that's true then mucking around with the tax rates has no useful effect.

    I'm beginning to believe that the real reform is going to have to be in the financial markets and it's not going to be pretty.
    As I told Jaecp in another thread, the real solution is for the government to spend less, not tax more.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
      The discussion was about Charlottesville and false claims that Trump called Neo-Nazis "very l fine people" and Sam's ridiculous insistence that there is no distinction between peaceful protestors and those itching for a fight. You suggest Jaecp has firsthand knowledge, but he wasn't at Charlottesville to the best of my knowledge, so...
      No, the sub thread that this conversation revolves around is a general discussion of how antifa behaves and if they vs right wing groups tend to be the cause of violence at demonstrations where both are present. And jaecp has first hand evidence that contradicts the breitbart etc party line on that issue. And that first hand evidence is being trashed in lieu of what is being disseminated by clearly biased sources.
      Last edited by oxmixmudd; 01-08-2020, 05:55 AM.
      My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

      If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

      This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

      Comment


      • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
        No, the sub thread that this conversation revolves around is a general discussion of how antifa behaves and if they vs right wing groups tend to be the cause of violence at demonstrations where both are present. And jaecp has first hand evidence that contradicts the breitbart etc party line on that issue. And that first hand evidence is being trashed in lieu of what is being disseminated by clearly biased sources.
        Because Jaecp isn't a biased source.
        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
        Than a fool in the eyes of God


        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

        Comment


        • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
          No, the sub thread that this conversation revolves around is a general discussion of how antifa behaves and if they vs right wing groups tend to be the cause of violence at demonstrations where both are present. And jaecp has first hand evidence that contradicts the breitbart etc party line on that issue. And that first hand evidence is being trashed in lieu of what is being disseminated by clearly biased sources.
          AKA Jaecp tells you what you want to hear, so it’s true! Every last Antifa member, coast to coast, is non violent because Jaecp claims the ones he met were not. Well that settles it, we have to ignore video evidence and eyewitness accounts of Antifa members beating up people, assaulting people, and damaging property because of the claims of a single person, in a single city.
          "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
          GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

          Comment


          • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
            AKA Jaecp tells you what you want to hear, so it’s true! Every last Antifa member, coast to coast, is non violent because Jaecp claims the ones he met were not. Well that settles it, we have to ignore video evidence and eyewitness accounts of Antifa members beating up people, assaulting people, and damaging property because of the claims of a single person, in a single city.
            It's not for nothing that they've been deemed a terrorist organization by our government.
            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
            Than a fool in the eyes of God


            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
              It's not for nothing that they've been deemed a terrorist organization by our government.
              The thing is, Jim should know better. Antifa isn’t a movement, with a central figurehead, but is split up all over the country. Even assuming Jaecp is telling the truth doesn’t mean that the entire Antifa movement isn’t violent. The photographic, video, and eyewitness evidence says they are more than capable of being violent.
              "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
              GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

              Comment


              • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                AKA Jaecp tells you what you want to hear, so it’s true! Every last Antifa member, coast to coast, is non violent because Jaecp claims the ones he met were not. Well that settles it, we have to ignore video evidence and eyewitness accounts of Antifa members beating up people, assaulting people, and damaging property because of the claims of a single person, in a single city.
                No pix, MM. You are summarily ignoring his experience as it is expressed here without looking into his claims. Without doing some legwork to find out if he has a valid point. That was my point in asking if it ever occurred to you that your biased sources might be misleading you.

                That question should be being asked, and you should be trying to determine its answer. Both of you are thinking in very tribal, irrational ways on this. Instead we should be looking at what he knows and if that is representative ofca larger misrepresentation of this group.
                My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                Comment


                • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                  No pix, MM. You are summarily ignoring his experience as it is expressed here without looking into his claims. Without doing some legwork to find out if he has a valid point. That was my point in asking if it ever occurred to you that your biased sources might be misleading you.

                  That question should be being asked, and you should be trying to determine its answer. Both of you are thinking in very tribal, irrational ways on this. Instead we should be looking at what he knows and if that is representative ofca larger misrepresentation of this group.
                  Sorry Jim, but there is video, photo, and eyewitness evidence showing Antifa members engaging in violent behavior. Shove those fingers in your ears and scream all you want, Jaecp is one person talking about a movement with thousands of people, from coast to coast. Even assuming he is telling the truth and is unbiased doesn’t make that evidence go away. Violent and non violent people exist in all movements. It’s quite funny how you want to hand wave away anything critical while wanting others to take Jaecp at his word . You’re as biased as can be and too blinded by your TDS to notice or care.
                  "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                  GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                    Sorry Jim, but there is video, photo, and eyewitness evidence showing Antifa members engaging in violent behavior. Shove those fingers in your ears and scream all you want, Jaecp is one person talking about a movement with thousands of people, from coast to coast. Even assuming he is telling the truth and is unbiased doesn’t make that evidence go away. Violent and non violent people exist in all movements. It’s quite funny how you want to hand wave away anything critical while wanting others to take Jaecp at his word . You’re as biased as can be and too blinded by your TDS to notice or care.
                    Can you for 5 seconds put a hold on your judgmental, hyper critical, over the top mouth and just listen before you mouth off? You spend every friggin day on this site jumping to conclusions and bashing anyone that so much as offers an alternate opinion.

                    jaecp is offering a different view of antifa, based on his experience. You are correct in that it is quite possible his experience does not necessarily account for the whole. And yet, if antifa is what the breitbarts of the world claim it is (and you,MM as their proxy), he should not be able to truthfully own the opinion he is expressing. What that means, as is so often true, is that there may well be a better accounting of what antifa is.

                    I found this on the ADL (Anti-Defamation-league) website on antifa. And this text presents an accounting of antifa that could account for both points of view:

                    https://www.adl.org/resources/backgr...who-are-antifa

                    Source: ADL above

                    All forms of antifa violence are problematic. Additionally, violence plays into the “victimhood” narrative of white supremacists and other right-wing extremists and can even be used for recruiting purposes. Images of these “free speech” protesters being beaten by black-clad and bandana-masked antifa provide right wing extremists with a powerful propaganda tool.

                    That said, it is important to reject attempts to claim equivalence between the antifa and the white supremacist groups they oppose. Antifa reject racism but use unacceptable tactics. White supremacists use even more extreme violence to spread their ideologies of hate, to intimidate ethnic minorities, and undermine democratic norms. Right-wing extremists have been one of the largest and most consistent sources of domestic terror incidents in the United States for many years; they have murdered hundreds of people in this country over the last ten years alone. To date, there have not been any known antifa-related murders.

                    © Copyright Original Source



                    One of the things the ADL website points out is that antifa is based on the idea that if a more aggressive push back against Nazi related activities in Germany had existed, fascism would not have been able to take hold.

                    Source: above

                    Their ideology is rooted in the assumption that the Nazi party would never have been able to come to power in Germany if people had more aggressively fought them in the streets in the 1920s and 30s. Most antifa come from the anarchist movement or from the far left, though since the 2016 presidential election, some people with more mainstream political backgrounds have also joined their ranks.

                    © Copyright Original Source



                    But - ADL rightly points out:

                    Source: above

                    All forms of antifa violence are problematic.

                    © Copyright Original Source



                    If you read their summary more completely, Jaecp's experience with them may well be more the norm, with violent outbreaks due to their embracement of the potential good of violence to stop greater violence more towards the abnormal, or possibly the exaggeration by the more violent white supremacists and fascist leaning sources.

                    I am a supporter of MLK's non-violence credo. I could never support any group that embraces violence as part of its expression of its ideas. Nevertheless, I think the ADL summary looks to be a far more balanced assessment than the wild-eyed defamatory posts you two have conjured up in the last two pages.
                    Last edited by oxmixmudd; 01-08-2020, 07:25 AM.
                    My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                    If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                    This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                      Can you for 5 seconds put a hold on your judgmental, hyper critical, over the top mouth and just listen before you mouth off? You spend every friggin day on this site jumping to conclusions and bashing anyone that so much as offers an alternate opinion.
                      Ironic that the king of mouthing off and attacking anyone that isn’t on their hands and knees, agreeing with everything he says, is ‘mouthing off’. You’re the emperor wearing no cloths Jim, you mouth off all the time and jump to insane conclusions to support your stupid belief that Trump is the most evil man that had ever existed and anyone that doesn’t agree with that opinion is attacked, belittled, and treated like trash. You’re wearing no cloths, Mr Emperor, when will you acknowledge that you’re not?

                      jaecp is offering a different view of antifa, based on his experience. You are correct in that it is quite possible his experience does not necessarily account for the whole. And yet, if antifa is what the breitbarts of the world claim it is (and you,MM as their proxy), he should not be able to truthfully own the opinion he is expressing. What that means, as is so often true, is that there may well be a better accounting of what antifa is.
                      That’s a lie Jim and I will call you a liar for it right now. Quote me where I said that at all or admit you made it up in order to justify your attacks, Mr Emperor or are you just plain too stupid to read plain English? What I have actually said, is that there is zero reason to take the accounts of a single person, in a single city, as an example of the whole. There is video, photographic, and eyewitness evidence attesting that Antifa members have engaged in acts of violence. Why do we ignore this and instead need to accept the word of a single person? Is it because he agrees with what you think or is your TDS so terrible that you’re incapable of seeing that your opponents don’t think everyone, on the left, is violent and insane? Both movements have their violent and non violent parts. I can more than admit this, can you?

                      I found this on the ADL (Anti-Defamation-league) website on antifa. And this text presents an accounting of antifa that could account for both points of view:

                      https://www.adl.org/resources/backgr...who-are-antifa

                      Source: ADL above

                      All forms of antifa violence are problematic. Additionally, violence plays into the “victimhood” narrative of white supremacists and other right-wing extremists and can even be used for recruiting purposes. Images of these “free speech” protesters being beaten by black-clad and bandana-masked antifa provide right wing extremists with a powerful propaganda tool.

                      That said, it is important to reject attempts to claim equivalence between the antifa and the white supremacist groups they oppose. Antifa reject racism but use unacceptable tactics. White supremacists use even more extreme violence to spread their ideologies of hate, to intimidate ethnic minorities, and undermine democratic norms. Right-wing extremists have been one of the largest and most consistent sources of domestic terror incidents in the United States for many years; they have murdered hundreds of people in this country over the last ten years alone. To date, there have not been any known antifa-related murders.

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      One of the things the ADL website points out is that antifa is based on the idea that if a more aggressive push back against Nazi related activities in Germany had existed, fascism would not have been able to take hold.

                      Source: above

                      Their ideology is rooted in the assumption that the Nazi party would never have been able to come to power in Germany if people had more aggressively fought them in the streets in the 1920s and 30s. Most antifa come from the anarchist movement or from the far left, though since the 2016 presidential election, some people with more mainstream political backgrounds have also joined their ranks.

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      But - ADL rightly points out:

                      Source: above

                      All forms of antifa violence are problematic.

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      If you read their summary more completely, Jaecp's experience with them may well be more the norm, with violent outbreaks due to their embracement of the potential good of violence to stop greater violence more towards the abnormal, or possibly the exaggeration by the more violent white supremacists and fascist leaning sources.

                      I am a supporter of MLK's non-violence credo. I could never support any group that embraces violence as part of its expression of its ideas. nevertheless, I think the ADL summary looks to be a far more balanced assessment that the wild-eyed defamatory posts you two have conjured up in the last two pages.
                      Quote me where I said every last one of them is violent or admit you made it up. AKA you lied or you’re just an incompetent fool that jumps to conclusions. Let me show you what I said:

                      “ Violent and non violent people exist in all movements.”

                      It’s right there, in black and white.

                      So are you stupid or a liar?

                      There assumption is also flawed because the Nazi’s used lots of violence against their opponents and would have merely sent in the brown shirts or SS to take care of the problem. If it met murdering the entire lot and covering it up, so be it. The Nazi’s would have merely killed members of Antifa and harassed them until they ran into hiding, just as they did with other groups. Their assumption is built on a pre school understanding on the rise of Nazi Germany.
                      Last edited by lilpixieofterror; 01-08-2020, 07:28 AM.
                      "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                      GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                        Ironic that the king of mouthing off and attacking anyone that isn’t on their hands and knees, agreeing with everything he says, is ‘mouthing off’. You’re the emperor wearing no cloths Jim, you mouth off all the time and jump to insane conclusions to support your stupid belief that Trump is the most evil man that had ever existed and anyone that doesn’t agree with that opinion is attacked, belittled, and treated like trash. You’re wearing no cloths, Mr Emperor, when will you acknowledge that you’re not.
                        Pix, my worst day does not exceed your normal one in terms of the degrading, defamatory comments that flow so freely from you.
                        My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                        If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                        This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                          Pix, my worst day does not exceed your normal one in terms of the degrading, defamatory comments that flow so freely from you.
                          Yeah it does Jim, you just can’t acknowledge it. I even said, in rather plain English, that movements have violent and non violent parts, which is a pretty obvious acknowledgement that not all Antifa members, are violent. You either lied about what I said, didn’t bother to read it, or merely lack basic reading skills. What one is it? I think you just didn’t bother to read what I said, beyond the first few sentences.
                          "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                          GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                            That’s a lie Jim and I will call you a liar for it right now. Quote me where I said that at all or admit you made it up in order to justify your attacks, Mr Emperor or are you just plain too stupid to read plain English? What I have actually said, is that there is zero reason to take the accounts of a single person, in a single city, as an example of the whole. There is video, photographic, and eyewitness evidence attesting that Antifa members have engaged in acts of violence. Why do we ignore this and instead need to accept the word of a single person? Is it because he agrees with what you think or is your TDS so terrible that you’re incapable of seeing that your opponents don’t think everyone, on the left, is violent and insane? Both movements have their violent and non violent parts. I can more than admit this, can you?
                            "What" is a lie pix. This is the segment you are replying to:

                            Originally posted by oxmixmudd
                            jaecp is offering a different view of antifa, based on his experience. You are correct in that it is quite possible his experience does not necessarily account for the whole. And yet, if antifa is what the breitbarts of the world claim it is (and you,MM as their proxy), he should not be able to truthfully own the opinion he is expressing. What that means, as is so often true, is that there may well be a better accounting of what antifa is.
                            What have I said in that quote that is a lie pix? As far as I can tell, I haven't even accused you of anything, other than expressing an opinion of antifa in line with the opinion of other right wingers.

                            AS far as I can tell you are in violation of forum policy here. Not only haven't you clearly defined what it is I'm supposed to have lied about, you have not justified that accusation either. You've just called me a liar free an clear.
                            Last edited by oxmixmudd; 01-08-2020, 07:35 AM.
                            My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                            If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                            This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                              Quote me where I said every last one of them is violent
                              Quote me were I said or implied anyone, including breitbart, said 'every last one of them is violent' in reference to antifa?
                              My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                              If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                              This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                                "What" is a lie pix. This is the segment you are replying to:



                                What have I said in that quote that is a lie pix? If you can't even point out what it is that is a lie, and then justify that claim, they you have accused me of lying against forum policy.
                                I’m accusing you Jim of being stupid or a liar because this isn’t a response to what I said at all.

                                “... if antifa is what the breitbarts of the world claim it is (and you,MM as their proxy), he should not be able to truthfully own the opinion he is expressing.”

                                I’ll highlight the relevant part:

                                Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                                Sorry Jim, but there is video, photo, and eyewitness evidence showing Antifa members engaging in violent behavior. Shove those fingers in your ears and scream all you want, Jaecp is one person talking about a movement with thousands of people, from coast to coast. Even assuming he is telling the truth and is unbiased doesn’t make that evidence go away. Violent and non violent people exist in all movements. It’s quite funny how you want to hand wave away anything critical while wanting others to take Jaecp at his word . You’re as biased as can be and too blinded by your TDS to notice or care.
                                That’s a pretty tact admission that I clearly don’t believe all members of Antifa, are violent. So let’s see:

                                1. Are you lying about what I said?
                                2. Are you too stupid to read what I said?
                                3. Or did you not bother to read what I said carefully (or at all) and merely assumed I said what you accused me of saying?
                                "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                                GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by little_monkey, Yesterday, 04:19 PM
                                16 responses
                                78 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Mountain Man  
                                Started by whag, 03-26-2024, 04:38 PM
                                52 responses
                                274 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Mountain Man  
                                Started by rogue06, 03-26-2024, 11:45 AM
                                25 responses
                                109 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post rogue06
                                by rogue06
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 09:21 AM
                                33 responses
                                195 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Roy
                                by Roy
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 08:34 AM
                                83 responses
                                352 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Sparko
                                by Sparko
                                 
                                Working...
                                X