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  • Originally posted by Sam View Post
    This question is answered in my posts; that you don't see the answer implies that you're not following the argument.

    To help yourself understand, try to restate my argument about philosophical personhood and the legal consequences, with a heavy focus (hint) on what the minimum requirements for personhood are and when such requirements are typically met.

    --Sam
    You seem trying to obfuscate the matter instead of just answering me directly. I will try starting at the beginning.

    Are you personally OK with abortion before a certain level of development? Yes or No.

    If no, why not?
    Last edited by Sparko; 01-27-2020, 01:17 PM.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
      I'm not sure why you'd ask Sam that question Sparko. At the core of the abortion debate are two primary factors.

      (1) When during the gestation period does the forming child take on individual rights.
      (2) The right of the woman to control what is going on in her own body.

      Neither of these is in play once the baby is born. There is no question this is now a separate human being with all the rights thereof (with the unquestioned legal consequence that to kill it is to commit murder), and the baby is no longer in the mothers body, so care of the child is no longer potentially in conflict with her right to control what is happening to or in her own body.
      I am just trying to get him to tell me what HE believes about abortion. I will ask you the same thing:

      Are you personally OK with abortion before a certain stage (such as your mentioning development of a brain)?

      If not, what is your best argument against abortion at any stage if you were to talk to someone who is not a Christian or religious?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        You seem trying to obfuscate the matter instead of just answering me directly. I will try starting at the beginning.

        Are you personally OK with abortion before a certain level of development? Yes or No.

        If no, why not?
        What I'm trying to do is either 1) help you develop the skill of following and addressing a logical argument or 2) not waste a great deal of my time if you're incapable of that skill or unwilling to exercise it.

        My posts so far clearly answer your question. If you've been following the argument at all, you would know the answer. If you're willing to go back and figure out, that's a good indication we can move forward. If not, it's a good indication that I shouldn't keep running toward a wall.

        --Sam
        "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Sam View Post
          What I'm trying to do is either 1) help you develop the skill of following and addressing a logical argument or 2) not waste a great deal of my time if you're incapable of that skill or unwilling to exercise it.

          My posts so far clearly answer your question. If you've been following the argument at all, you would know the answer. If you're willing to go back and figure out, that's a good indication we can move forward. If not, it's a good indication that I shouldn't keep running toward a wall.

          --Sam
          And yet when I state what I think you are saying, or what Ox is saying, I am accused of twisting your words.

          Here is what I have garnered from your logical and clear answers:

          1. You claim to be pro-life.
          2. You also claim to not want to change the laws to make abortion legal
          3. You also argue against the fetus being a person, at least until a certain age.
          4. You say the only recourse is to try to convince people abortion is wrong.
          5. You can't tell me what that argument (see 4) would be, or whether it would include all abortion, or just abortion after a certain stage of development.
          6. Instead when asked for a clear answer, you merely obfuscate and refer me back to your "clear answers" which are not clear at all.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            And yet when I state what I think you are saying, or what Ox is saying, I am accused of twisting your words.

            Here is what I have garnered from your logical and clear answers:

            1. You claim to be pro-life.
            2. You also claim to not want to change the laws to make abortion legal
            3. You also argue against the fetus being a person, at least until a certain age.
            4. You say the only recourse is to try to convince people abortion is wrong.
            5. You can't tell me what that argument (see 4) would be, or whether it would include all abortion, or just abortion after a certain stage of development.
            6. Instead when asked for a clear answer, you merely obfuscate and refer me back to your "clear answers" which are not clear at all.
            What am I saying specifically in regards to #3? That's a pretty key issue with relevance your question!

            --Sam
            "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Sam View Post
              What am I saying specifically in regards to #3? That's a pretty key issue with relevance your question!

              --Sam
              You know, if you wanted clarity of understanding, you could just state your beliefs rather than make everybody re-read umpteen pages of a ginormous thread. Just sayin'.
              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
              sigpic
              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

              Comment


              • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                You know, if you wanted clarity of understanding, you could just state your beliefs rather than make everybody re-read umpteen pages of a ginormous thread. Just sayin'.
                This has got to be the sixth or seventh time this board has had this exact conversation so that's a factor.

                Regardless, if someone wants to jump into the discussion I'm having with others, they're welcome to do so but it's incumbent on them to catch up before making assertions or asking questions that have been throughly answered in argument already. And I spent a good deal of time discussing with Sparko the exact issue that answers the question he posed to me, leading me to wonder if we're actually having a discussion at all.

                --Sam
                "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                Comment


                • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                  You know, if you wanted clarity of understanding, you could just state your beliefs rather than make everybody re-read umpteen pages of a ginormous thread. Just sayin'.
                  This reminds me so much of trying to have a discussion with NRAJeff.
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                    This has got to be the sixth or seventh time this board has had this exact conversation so that's a factor.
                    If your position isn't clear after six or seven conversations on the topic, perhaps you might consider refining your presentation of it. The point of communication, after all, is communicating. At some point, if one perceives that the recipient is having difficulty understanding, it is incumbent on the communicator to endeavor to resolve the impasse.
                    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                    sigpic
                    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      I am just trying to get him to tell me what HE believes about abortion. I will ask you the same thing:

                      Are you personally OK with abortion before a certain stage (such as your mentioning development of a brain)?

                      If not, what is your best argument against abortion at any stage if you were to talk to someone who is not a Christian or religious?
                      As an act of personal morality, I would never ask anyone I know to abort a child at any stage of development and I would always encourage anyone to seek a solution other than abortion.

                      The issue of legality is moderated by the issue of how we define a person. So the argument that aborting a fetus prior to some nascant indication of consciousness is murder I believe fails, which means if it is illegal, it must be for some reason other than it is murder prior to that point. I do believe that it is morally wrong to prohibit abortion in the very earliest stages in extreme cases like incest and rape. And I believe that there are times in cases like that where an early stage abortion would be the moral equivalent of aborting to avoid the death of the mother. I believe that mercy is almost always better than justice, forgiveness better than revenge, so while I recognize these exceptions, they are accommodations to legal and physical realities, not a concession that abortion is ever 'good'.

                      I hope you have the emotional and mental capacity to comprehend that does not equate to me being 'for abortion', but I know there are many on this site that do not.
                      My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                      If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                      This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                        If your position isn't clear after six or seven conversations on the topic, perhaps you might consider refining your presentation of it. The point of communication, after all, is communicating. At some point, if one perceives that the recipient is having difficulty understanding, it is incumbent on the communicator to endeavor to resolve the impasse.
                        I am fully confident that I've explained my position in a way that answers the question Sparko was asking clearly. I submit that communication takes both clear speaking and active listening and that the latter, not the former, is very often the reason for an impasse.

                        This really isn't a difficult thing: the question was basic and clearly discoverable to anyone who could restate even the 30,000 ft. view outline of what I've been saying. I really don't need to keep expending my energy on it if it's all just bouncing off a brick wall.

                        Anyone who restates my argument about fetal personhood is going to have the answer to Sparko's question right there.

                        --Sam
                        "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                          I am fully confident that I've explained my position in a way that answers the question Sparko was asking clearly. I submit that communication takes both clear speaking and active listening and that the latter, not the former, is very often the reason for an impasse.

                          This really isn't a difficult thing: the question was basic and clearly discoverable to anyone who could restate even the 30,000 ft. view outline of what I've been saying. I really don't need to keep expending my energy on it if it's all just bouncing off a brick wall.

                          Anyone who restates my argument about fetal personhood is going to have the answer to Sparko's question right there.

                          --Sam
                          You remind me of the day I was having breakfast at the Texan Cafe downtown, and there were a couple of little old lades sitting at the table behind me.
                          They were talking about their Sunday School Teacher, and how much they enjoyed their class, and what a wonderful man he was.
                          It didn't take long for me to figure out what Church they were attending, and who, exactly, they were discussing.

                          Then one of them, in awe and wonder, made this declaration.... "He's such a brilliant man... a lot of the times I don't even have a clue what he's talking about".

                          Unless people are learning, there is no "teaching" going on --- just talking.
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            You remind me of the day I was having breakfast at the Texan Cafe downtown, and there were a couple of little old lades sitting at the table behind me.
                            They were talking about their Sunday School Teacher, and how much they enjoyed their class, and what a wonderful man he was.
                            It didn't take long for me to figure out what Church they were attending, and who, exactly, they were discussing.

                            Then one of them, in awe and wonder, made this declaration.... "He's such a brilliant man... a lot of the times I don't even have a clue what he's talking about".

                            Unless people are learning, there is no "teaching" going on --- just talking.
                            And I'm reminded of the old adage that you can lead a horse to water but can't make him drink.

                            Seriously, if you want to snark then take a stab at it: restate the argument I've made here about fetal personhood in a paragraph. That's plenty of space to answer Sparko's question. What have I said is necessary for personhood, when does that capacity develop, how does that apply to the question.

                            It's easy, though harder than just finding things to gripe about, and it'd be a good exercise in how teaching takes two.

                            --Sam
                            "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                              What am I saying specifically in regards to #3? That's a pretty key issue with relevance your question!

                              --Sam
                              You tell me, Sam. I am apparently too stupid to understand your past posts, so dumb it down for me. Please?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                                As an act of personal morality, I would never ask anyone I know to abort a child at any stage of development and I would always encourage anyone to seek a solution other than abortion.

                                The issue of legality is moderated by the issue of how we define a person. So the argument that aborting a fetus prior to some nascant indication of consciousness is murder I believe fails, which means if it is illegal, it must be for some reason other than it is murder prior to that point. I do believe that it is morally wrong to prohibit abortion in the very earliest stages in extreme cases like incest and rape. And I believe that there are times in cases like that where an early stage abortion would be the moral equivalent of aborting to avoid the death of the mother. I believe that mercy is almost always better than justice, forgiveness better than revenge, so while I recognize these exceptions, they are accommodations to legal and physical realities, not a concession that abortion is ever 'good'.

                                I hope you have the emotional and mental capacity to comprehend that does not equate to me being 'for abortion', but I know there are many on this site that do not.
                                You didn't actually answer the second part of my question.

                                What is your best argument against abortion at any stage if you were to talk to someone who is not a Christian or religious?

                                Comment

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