Announcement

Collapse

Civics 101 Guidelines

Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!

Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less

Confederate flags again

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    It is not a matter of it being the most recognized flag, which is questionable.
    It isn't even debatable. It is THE most recognized flag of all of the flags used by the forces of the Confederacy.

    There were a number of different flags used by the Confederacy.
    Neither of the 3 "officially adopted" flags were the NoVa battle flag. And most people couldn't identify them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_...tes_of_America

    The headquarters flag of the Army of Northern Virginia was a different flag, but . . .

    It was the Army of Northern Virginia Battle Flag, designed by William Porcher Miles.It was flown at the front of the Army of Northern Virginia in Battle throughout the war beginning in 1861.
    Correct. The Army of Northern Virginia. Racism was not "intertwined" at its inception. Distinction from the "Yankee" flag was
    That's what
    - She

    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
    - Stephen R. Donaldson

    Comment


    • Originally posted by simplicio View Post
      But how many of its men, and its leaders, thought that slavery was part and parcel of what the Confederacy stood for?
      That would require some serious divination or mind-reading...

      The flag has 13 stars, one for each state in the confederacy,
      The flag's stars represented the number of states in the Confederacy. The distance between the stars decreased as the number of states increased, reaching thirteen when the secessionist factions of Kentucky and Missouri joined in late 1861. The number of stars was changed several times as well. He [Miles] described these changes and his reasons for making them in early 1861.
      That's what
      - She

      Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
      - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

      I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
      - Stephen R. Donaldson

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
        That would require some serious divination or mind-reading...



        The flag's stars represented the number of states in the Confederacy. The distance between the stars decreased as the number of states increased, reaching thirteen when the secessionist factions of Kentucky and Missouri joined in late 1861. The number of stars was changed several times as well. He [Miles] described these changes and his reasons for making them in early 1861.
        Yes it would need some divination and mind reading. Fortunately for those without those skills, we do have a proxy for what they were thinking. We use their writings and speeches.

        The stars representing the various states shows that they saw themselves as part of the new nation, with some common purpose. When we look at the founding documents for the Confederacy, we see that slavery was part of the nation's vision.

        It was not hijacked by Dylan Roof as a symbol of racism. It has always carried that connotation.
        And it is no mere coincidence that it later became a symbol of segregation, that those who resisted integration saw it as a natural symbol.
        Last edited by simplicio; 01-07-2020, 11:51 AM.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by simplicio View Post
          Yes it would need some divination and mind reading. Fortunately for those without those skills, we do have a proxy for what they were thinking. We use their writings and speeches.

          The stars representing the various states shows that they saw themselves as part of the new nation, with some common purpose.
          The flag has 13 stars, one for each state in the confederacy, but it did not start with 13. That's the point I was making. Just an informational tidbit. Not an argument.

          When we look at the founding documents for the Confederacy, we see that slavery was part of the nation's vision.
          Yes. It was part. But it was more of a derivative of the larger issue of Federal Government vs. State Government supremacy. No state seceded by only saying "We want to own slaves, so we are outtie."


          And it is no mere coincidence that it later became a symbol of segregation, that those who resisted integration saw it as a natural symbol.
          But, as I've asked many times, can't a symbol be repurposed for something less nefarious? Must "Southern Pride" always mean "We should go back to owning negroes"?
          That's what
          - She

          Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
          - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

          I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
          - Stephen R. Donaldson

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
            But, as I've asked many times, can't a symbol be repurposed for something less nefarious? Must "Southern Pride" always mean "We should go back to owning negroes"?
            It would be difficult to imagine someone successfully re-purposing the Nazi Swastika or the Hammer and Sickle without invariably and rightfully causing people to draw an inference to Nazi or Stalinist ideology.

            "Southern Pride", if it is indeed separate from Confederate ideology, doesn't need Confederate symbols.

            --Sam
            "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Sam View Post
              It would be difficult to imagine someone successfully re-purposing the Nazi Swastika or the Hammer and Sickle without invariably and rightfully causing people to draw an inference to Nazi or Stalinist ideology.
              Well, to be fair, Hitler stole the swastika.

              "Southern Pride", if it is indeed separate from Confederate ideology, doesn't need Confederate symbols.

              --Sam
              Where they intersect, they choose to use them. It is others who must assume their further connection.
              That's what
              - She

              Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
              - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

              I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
              - Stephen R. Donaldson

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                Well, to be fair, Hitler stole the swastika.



                Where they intersect, they choose to use them. It is others who must assume their further connection.
                The Nazi swastika is unique; while it's probably unwise to use other swastikas for that reason, using the Nazi swastika would be a deliberate act.

                If "Southern Pride" folk are choosing to use Confederate iconography where the ideologies "intersect", they are making a deliberate act to tie their ideology together with the Confederate ideology.

                That's their choice and the association inferred as a consequence is priced in at the moment of that choosing.

                Same with the Nazis, same with the Stalinists.

                --Sam
                "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                  The Nazi swastika is unique; while it's probably unwise to use other swastikas for that reason, using the Nazi swastika would be a deliberate act.

                  If "Southern Pride" folk are choosing to use Confederate iconography where the ideologies "intersect", they are making a deliberate act to tie their ideology together with the Confederate ideology.
                  ONLY where they intersect.

                  That's their choice and the association inferred as a consequence is priced in at the moment of that choosing.
                  And who does that speak most about? The one making the assumptions.
                  That's what
                  - She

                  Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                  - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                  I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                  - Stephen R. Donaldson

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                    ONLY where they intersect.



                    And who does that speak most about? The one making the assumptions.
                    And if your local school would be idolizing Che Guevara and posting the famous image, would you make,the fime distinctions?

                    I think it likely that the same persons defending use of that flag would use a different set of arguments if Che were promoted.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                      ONLY where they intersect.

                      And who does that speak most about? The one making the assumptions.
                      If I walk down the street with a Nazi Swastika armband because I really like the intersection of American rustic mythology and the Nazi's glorification of rural community, it's not the assumptions of other people that are unreasonable.

                      And if it's so important that I choose the Nazi symbol to represent that intersection, when there are myriad other potential symbols, then I'm making a choice to prioritize the Nazi connection to my supposedly separate ideology.

                      That dog won't hunt, as they say.

                      --Sam
                      "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                        If I walk down the street with a Nazi Swastika armband because I really like the intersection of American rustic mythology and the Nazi's glorification of rural community, it's not the assumptions of other people that are unreasonable.
                        Wouldn't it be though? Aren't they assuming why you are wearing it?

                        And if it's so important that I choose the Nazi symbol to represent that intersection, when there are myriad other potential symbols, then I'm making a choice to prioritize the Nazi connection to my supposedly separate ideology.

                        That dog won't hunt, as they say.

                        --Sam
                        So, can you name another symbol of the South that is exclusively Southern? Perhaps a bowl pf gravy?
                        That's what
                        - She

                        Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                        - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                        I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                        - Stephen R. Donaldson

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                          And if your local school would be idolizing Che Guevara and posting the famous image, would you make,the fime distinctions?

                          I think it likely that the same persons defending use of that flag would use a different set of arguments if Che were promoted.
                          Honestly, we all suffer from this problem to some degree. Because we don't take the time to ask questions. It's much easier to assume and then move on with that assumption.
                          That's what
                          - She

                          Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                          - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                          I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                          - Stephen R. Donaldson

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                            Wouldn't it be though? Aren't they assuming why you are wearing it?



                            So, can you name another symbol of the South that is exclusively Southern? Perhaps a bowl pf gravy?
                            They're making a reasonable inference based on the information provided. Same as if I walked into church with a t-shirt of Baphomet.

                            Myself, I'm partial to the new flag design:

                            f61a2916f949fa11ceb781ff94787e95.jpg

                            But there are literally infinite ways to make a flag. The Confederates did it. Southerners can showcase some creativity and do it again.

                            If they're choosing to base their Southern pride specifically on the Confederacy then they're making a choice that leads to a reasonable inference.

                            --Sam
                            "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                              They're making a reasonable inference based on the information provided. Same as if I walked into church with a t-shirt of Baphomet.

                              Myself, I'm partial to the new flag design:

                              [ATTACH=CONFIG]41916[/ATTACH]

                              But there are literally infinite ways to make a flag. The Confederates did it. Southerners can showcase some creativity and do it again.

                              If they're choosing to base their Southern pride specifically on the Confederacy then they're making a choice that leads to a reasonable inference.

                              --Sam
                              Unfortunately, there is a disconnect today. Many of the southerners that I know and grew up with in Richmond do not draw the tight parallel of Confederacy = slavery. It is seen as a derived cause for secession, but the actual war was fought to stay independent and self-determinant. There is really no way to convince them otherwise. It's a matter of perspective.

                              Personally, I think their bandying the flag about is idiotic. There are only 2 popular flags I respect, other than the state flags. The US flag, and the POW flag.
                              That's what
                              - She

                              Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                              - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                              I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                              - Stephen R. Donaldson

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                                Unfortunately, there is a disconnect today. Many of the southerners that I know and grew up with in Richmond do not draw the tight parallel of Confederacy = slavery. It is seen as a derived cause for secession, but the actual war was fought to stay independent and self-determinant. There is really no way to convince them otherwise. It's a matter of perspective.

                                Personally, I think their bandying the flag about is idiotic. There are only 2 popular flags I respect, other than the state flags. The US flag, and the POW flag.
                                Well, there's certainly no chance in bringing everyone on board. But the solution can't be to cede the propagation of Confederate ideology to a subset of people who will not or cannot acknowledge its clear and inseparable ties to slavery.

                                If we're talking about who has to suffer the use or loss of the Confederate flag and monuments, it's more just to stand with those who rightly understand the Confederate cause as one of slavery and stand against those who won't or can't acknowledge that.

                                --Sam
                                "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by little_monkey, 03-27-2024, 04:19 PM
                                16 responses
                                160 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post One Bad Pig  
                                Started by whag, 03-26-2024, 04:38 PM
                                53 responses
                                400 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Mountain Man  
                                Started by rogue06, 03-26-2024, 11:45 AM
                                25 responses
                                114 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post rogue06
                                by rogue06
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 09:21 AM
                                33 responses
                                198 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Roy
                                by Roy
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 08:34 AM
                                84 responses
                                379 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post JimL
                                by JimL
                                 
                                Working...
                                X