Announcement

Collapse

Civics 101 Guidelines

Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!

Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less

England's elections

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    a landslide victory for the Conservatives
    Is there anything much about the UK Conservative party that Americans would identify as 'socially conservative'?

    - Abortion is legal in the UK, with a few restrictions ("abortion is generally allowed for socio-economic reasons during the first twenty-four weeks of the pregnancy" -wiki), and government-funded, and the Conservative party is not proposing changing this.

    - Same sex marriage was recognized in England during the tenure of a Conservative party government, and the Conservative party isn't proposing changing this.

    - Their leader, Boris Johnson, seems to lean more atheist than Christian:
    Although baptised a Catholic and later confirmed into the Church of England, Johnson has stated that "his faith comes and goes" and that he is not a serious practising Christian. He holds ancient Greek statesman and orator Pericles as a personal hero. According to Johnson's biographer, Andrew Gimson, regarding ancient Greek and Roman polytheism: "it is clear that [Johnson] is inspired by the Romans, and even more by the Greeks, and repelled by the early Christians". Johnson views secular humanism positively and sees it as owing more to the classical world than Christian thinking. -wiki
    Nor is the UK Conservative party as a whole, AFAICT, trying to present itself as a Christian party nor is it running on making the UK more Christian.

    - Boris Johnson also has a history of drug use, and a Trump-like history of marriages and affairs, as well as one of his affairs leading to a child and another to abortions.

    About the only value I can identify in the UK Conservative party that US social conservatives on this forum would like, is its anti-immigration rhetoric / desire to change immigration policy.
    (And that's not something I associate very strongly with social conservativism anyway, because here in New Zealand the right-wing party wants massive immigration in order to drive up house prices and make their rich home-owning voters richer, while the left wing parties are worried about rising house prices and environmental impacts etc and so want less immigration)

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Starlight View Post
      ....

      About the only value I can identify in the UK Conservative party that US social conservatives on this forum would like, is its anti-immigration rhetoric / desire to change immigration policy. (And that's not something I associate very strongly with social conservativism anyway, because here in New Zealand the right-wing party wants massive immigration in order to drive up house prices and make their rich home-owning voters richer, while the left wing parties are worried about rising house prices and environmental impacts etc and so want less immigration)
      In either case, the issue would be LEGAL immigration, yes?
      "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
        And angry, and destructive, and disorderly, and uncouth....

        I know!!!!! They need JESUS!!!!
        Was Jesus never any of those? Guess we must be reading different gospels.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Starlight View Post
          Was Jesus never any of those? Guess we must be reading different gospels.
          He never sinned. So, yeah, you're reading one of those false gospels.
          "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            In either case, the issue would be LEGAL immigration, yes?
            In NZ, the issue is legal immigration yes (we have some illegal immigration but it is almost never talked about because basically no one cares, and the quantity of it is low compared to legal immigration), and I assume from what I have read that the issue in the UK is also legal immigration.

            So I guess in neither country illegal immigration is the issue like it is in the US... so in that case is there nothing about the UK Conservative party for US social conservatives to like?

            A few US posters here seem to think that the UK Conservative party winning is a good thing. Are they just being fooled by the name of it into thinking it has something in common with them?

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Starlight View Post
              In NZ, the issue is legal immigration yes (we have some illegal immigration but it is almost never talked about because basically no one cares, and the quantity of it is low compared to legal immigration), and I assume from what I have read that the issue in the UK is also legal immigration.

              So I guess in neither country illegal immigration is the issue like it is in the US... so in that case is there nothing about the UK Conservative party for US social conservatives to like?

              A few US posters here seem to think that the UK Conservative party winning is a good thing. Are they just being fooled by the name of it into thinking it has something in common with them?
              So, now you'll posit that the labor party is MORE like the US Conservatives, and we should be unhappy that THEY lost?
              "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                So, now you'll posit that the labor party is MORE like the US Conservatives, and we should be unhappy that THEY lost?
                No, I'm just noting that none of the major parties in the UK had any major policies that US conservatives would closely identify with. There wasn't a major party with US conservative values competing in the UK election.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                  No, I'm just noting that none of the major parties in the UK had any major policies that US conservatives would closely identify with. There wasn't a major party with US conservative values competing in the UK election.
                  I honestly don't know enough about the parties in the UK to debate this, Star, so I'll concede this round to you.
                  "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by demi-conservative View Post
                    Glorious victory. Boris will make Britain Great again.
                    I voted Tory - whatever BoJo’s personal failings, letting in Labour would likely be catastrophic. And Brexit needs doing, for real, ASAP. I would only think of voting Labour, if it would stop the SNP.

                    365 Tory seats to 203 Labour is not a bad result. 500 Tory seats out of 650 would have been even better…

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                      For some reason, I kept misreading "parliamentary" as "paramilitary" which made the discussion rather confusing.
                      I keep reading “immortality” as “immorality” - & vice versa.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                        For some reason, I kept misreading "parliamentary" as "paramilitary" which made the discussion rather confusing.
                        After I worked so hard to spell it correctly, too...

                        "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot


                        "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                        My Personal Blog

                        My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          Congratulations Boris!

                          I think this shows that even in the UK, the liberals have gone too far and alienated the people. I see this as a foreshadowing of the 2020 US Election.
                          I'm dubious it's particularly applicable to the US.

                          Of course no election can be boiled down to one issue, but it seems to me the primary reason the Conservative Party won so decisively is quite simple: They had a clear and absolute message concerning the biggest issue in the UK (Brexit). The Labour Party did not.

                          For years now the UK has been in this awkward state that no one, the Remainers or the Exiters, are happy with. Now, if the choice were Leave or Stay, we'd see things as fairly even, perhaps even a small victory for Stay. But that wasn't the situation in this election. The Conservative Party campaigned hard for making Brexit happen. Of course, someone can ask "wait, these guys have been trying to make it get done for years now, why should we trust them on this now?" Boris gave an answer to that: He made every Conservative candidate sign onto a pledge that they would support his Brexit deal if they won. That's strong assurance that if they won this election, Brexit would actually happen. (to be followed by a lot of other new negotiations, granted, but the step of actually leaving the EU would be accomplished)

                          Meanwhile, the Labour Party's position was, as I understand it, "we'll re-negotiate and make another public referendum!" So after years of this awkward situation, their rallying cry is "we'll keep this situation you don't like going, and maybe we'll figure something out!" That is not a particularly compelling message. It won't win over those who are pro-Brexit, it won't win over those who just want it done with one way or the other, and it's not even particularly appealing to people who want to abort Brexit and stay in the EU (I suppose a switch from a the Conservative's "definitely leave" to Labour's "probably leave" would be an improvement, but not much of one). If the Labour Party had actually taken a position of "Brexit won't work, screw it, we're done, we're staying in the EU if we win" then who knows? They might have done a lot better.

                          So on the biggest issue in the election, the Conservative Party had a clear, simple, and definite message that would be satisfying to those who wanted Brexit. The Labour Party did not have a message that would be satisfying to those who opposed Brexit. And for people who just want the issue to be decided one way or the other at long last, the Conservative Party's definite message was far superior to the wishy-washy stuff the Labour Party was offering. It seems to me that this major difference in proposed Brexit policy is what caused the election to end up the way it did rather than claims that the liberals "went too far and alienated the people."

                          Granted, I'll admit, I could be woefully uninformed about everything I just said. But it does seem to add up to me.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
                            I'm dubious it's particularly applicable to the US.

                            Of course no election can be boiled down to one issue, but it seems to me the primary reason the Conservative Party won so decisively is quite simple: They had a clear and absolute message concerning the biggest issue in the UK (Brexit). The Labour Party did not.

                            For years now the UK has been in this awkward state that no one, the Remainers or the Exiters, are happy with. Now, if the choice were Leave or Stay, we'd see things as fairly even, perhaps even a small victory for Stay. But that wasn't the situation in this election. The Conservative Party campaigned hard for making Brexit happen. Of course, someone can ask "wait, these guys have been trying to make it get done for years now, why should we trust them on this now?" Boris gave an answer to that: He made every Conservative candidate sign onto a pledge that they would support his Brexit deal if they won. That's strong assurance that if they won this election, Brexit would actually happen. (to be followed by a lot of other new negotiations, granted, but the step of actually leaving the EU would be accomplished)

                            Meanwhile, the Labour Party's position was, as I understand it, "we'll re-negotiate and make another public referendum!" So after years of this awkward situation, their rallying cry is "we'll keep this situation you don't like going, and maybe we'll figure something out!" That is not a particularly compelling message. It won't win over those who are pro-Brexit, it won't win over those who just want it done with one way or the other, and it's not even particularly appealing to people who want to abort Brexit and stay in the EU (I suppose a switch from a the Conservative's "definitely leave" to Labour's "probably leave" would be an improvement, but not much of one). If the Labour Party had actually taken a position of "Brexit won't work, screw it, we're done, we're staying in the EU if we win" then who knows? They might have done a lot better.

                            So on the biggest issue in the election, the Conservative Party had a clear, simple, and definite message that would be satisfying to those who wanted Brexit. The Labour Party did not have a message that would be satisfying to those who opposed Brexit. And for people who just want the issue to be decided one way or the other at long last, the Conservative Party's definite message was far superior to the wishy-washy stuff the Labour Party was offering. It seems to me that this major difference in proposed Brexit policy is what caused the election to end up the way it did rather than claims that the liberals "went too far and alienated the people."

                            Granted, I'll admit, I could be woefully uninformed about everything I just said. But it does seem to add up to me.
                            Not so sure. So far, the devil is in the details of any agreement attempted, no one has been completely happy. One major sticking point has been Northern Ireland, which not contiguous with the rest of Britain. It shares a border with a foreign country; the border is currently open, hardly noticeable.

                            I don't think it is necessarily down to one issue, the remain side as represented by Corbyn is strongly socialist and radically different from the Tories.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Can't the left come up with different catch phrases?

                              'Not my prime minister', protesters march in London against Johnson

                              http://news.trust.org/item/20191213183240-g4w1z
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
                                I'm dubious it's particularly applicable to the US.

                                Of course no election can be boiled down to one issue, but it seems to me the primary reason the Conservative Party won so decisively is quite simple: They had a clear and absolute message concerning the biggest issue in the UK (Brexit). The Labour Party did not.

                                For years now the UK has been in this awkward state that no one, the Remainers or the Exiters, are happy with. Now, if the choice were Leave or Stay, we'd see things as fairly even, perhaps even a small victory for Stay. But that wasn't the situation in this election. The Conservative Party campaigned hard for making Brexit happen. Of course, someone can ask "wait, these guys have been trying to make it get done for years now, why should we trust them on this now?" Boris gave an answer to that: He made every Conservative candidate sign onto a pledge that they would support his Brexit deal if they won. That's strong assurance that if they won this election, Brexit would actually happen. (to be followed by a lot of other new negotiations, granted, but the step of actually leaving the EU would be accomplished)

                                Meanwhile, the Labour Party's position was, as I understand it, "we'll re-negotiate and make another public referendum!" So after years of this awkward situation, their rallying cry is "we'll keep this situation you don't like going, and maybe we'll figure something out!" That is not a particularly compelling message. It won't win over those who are pro-Brexit, it won't win over those who just want it done with one way or the other, and it's not even particularly appealing to people who want to abort Brexit and stay in the EU (I suppose a switch from a the Conservative's "definitely leave" to Labour's "probably leave" would be an improvement, but not much of one). If the Labour Party had actually taken a position of "Brexit won't work, screw it, we're done, we're staying in the EU if we win" then who knows? They might have done a lot better.

                                So on the biggest issue in the election, the Conservative Party had a clear, simple, and definite message that would be satisfying to those who wanted Brexit. The Labour Party did not have a message that would be satisfying to those who opposed Brexit. And for people who just want the issue to be decided one way or the other at long last, the Conservative Party's definite message was far superior to the wishy-washy stuff the Labour Party was offering. It seems to me that this major difference in proposed Brexit policy is what caused the election to end up the way it did rather than claims that the liberals "went too far and alienated the people."

                                Granted, I'll admit, I could be woefully uninformed about everything I just said. But it does seem to add up to me.
                                I agree that it's not particularly relevant to the US proper, but I do think it's one of a number of right-ward movements both in the UK and Europe.

                                Mind you, the Tories have quite a ways to go to be on the same page as US conservatives. They're liberals by our standards.

                                "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot


                                "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                                My Personal Blog

                                My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by Ronson, Yesterday, 09:17 AM
                                18 responses
                                134 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Ronson
                                by Ronson
                                 
                                Started by Mountain Man, 01-22-2021, 10:00 AM
                                20 responses
                                135 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Mountain Man  
                                Started by CivilDiscourse, 01-22-2021, 06:45 AM
                                75 responses
                                468 views
                                2 likes
                                Last Post EvoUK
                                by EvoUK
                                 
                                Started by Cow Poke, 01-21-2021, 03:35 PM
                                45 responses
                                313 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Cow Poke  
                                Started by Ronson, 01-21-2021, 09:45 AM
                                34 responses
                                185 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Ronson
                                by Ronson
                                 
                                Working...
                                X