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England's elections

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  • #16
    They are entirely separate systems - and no parliamentary system I'm aware of has the same kind of voting system as the US - and I can't think of any that aren't oriented to multiparty (I want to say most are some form of proportional, but can't swear to that). Parliamentary systems encourage party affiliation as a design feature; the US system is ironically designed to disregard party altogether. All the party related US features are later regulatory measures and checks on power - which makes our two party system - in a country with many political parties - a weird hybrid.

    The US elects representatives who happen to belong to a party; the UK elects party members that happen to live in that district. US parties can't (legally) select their own candidates by appointment; they must be selected via primary or caucus. UK candidates are selected by appointment by party leadership.

    It's exceptionally rare for third party candidates to be elected in the US even at the local level. Even independent candidates are rarely elected in the US. The UK normally elects to Parliament between 3 to 5 parties.
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    • #17
      Many are likely not familiar with the term first past the post (FPP). It refers to the winner take all system we have. It leads to anomalies, the differences between popular sentiment and the actual proportions of representation.

      An example of the system adapting itself to the paradoxes which arise is gerrymandering, the artificial manipulation of voting districts to dilute votes of one party.

      A result of FPP is that third party candidates act as spoilers. Another is that third parties are considered wasted votes.

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      • #18
        Er, not quite.
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        • #19
          Not sure that this election is necessarily a referendum on Brexit, the remainders were represented by the left wing of British politics. Renationalization (advocated by Corbyn and Labour) is polarizing.

          So this can be seen as a rejection of the brand of democratic socialism, not just a confirmation of Brexit sentiment.

          The views on Brexit are different than the election results, according to polling.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
            no parliamentary system I'm aware of has the same kind of voting system as the US
            The UK does. Both the US and the UK have electorate-based winner-take-all systems aka Plurality voting aka First Past the Post systems.

            Here in New Zealand we used to have that same system, and changed away from it 23 years ago to a proportional voting one (designed to facilitate multiple parties), and we went from having 2 parties in our parliament to having 7 in the course of the first election after the change.

            Parliamentary systems are multiparty by design.
            No. You seem to have a serious misunderstanding of this subject. Terraceth has it right. Parliamentary systems are not inherently any more multiparty by design than the US congressional system is. What matters is the vote-counting method.
            Last edited by Starlight; 12-13-2019, 03:30 AM.
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            • #21
              Originally posted by Starlight View Post
              The UK does. Both the US and the UK have electorate-based winner-take-all systems aka Plurality voting aka First Past the Post systems.

              Here in New Zealand we used to have that same system, and changed away from it 15 years ago to a proportional voting one (designed to facilitate multiple parties), and we went from having 2 parties in our parliament to having 7 in the course of the first election after the change.

              No. You seem to have a serious misunderstanding of this subject. Terraceth has it right. Parliamentary systems are not inherently any more multiparty by design than the US congressional system is. What matters is the vote-counting method.
              :) As if a Kiwi. would know anything about a parliamentary system!

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              • #22
                Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                :) As if a Kiwi. would know anything about a parliamentary system!
                Yeah, we've only had one for 165 years, so still learning the ropes.

                Ours was originally copied from the UK at that, given most of the people here came from there. Though we abolished the upper house in 1950, and then changed the voting system away from First Past the Post in 1996, so it looks a bit different to the UK's in the present day.

                I'm amused though at the number of UK citizens on the internet suggesting they might move to NZ in the wake of Boris the Johnson's win. Though now I think about it, NZ and Germany are pretty much the only Western nations to have a well-known leader who also has a consistently positive approval rating (Boris has -14% approval in the most recent poll I can find, compared to NZ's Jacinda Ardern at +33%).
                Last edited by Starlight; 12-13-2019, 03:41 AM.
                "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                  Yeah, we've only had one for 165 years, so still learning the ropes.

                  Ours was originally copied from the UK at that, given most of the people here came from there. Though we abolished the upper house in 1950, and then changed the voting system away from First Past the Post in 1996, so it looks a bit different to the UK's in the present day.

                  I'm amused though at the number of UK citizens on the internet suggesting they might move to NZ in the wake of Boris the Johnson's win. Though now I think about it, NZ and Germany are pretty much the only Western nations to have a well-known leader who also has a consistently positive approval rating (Boris has -14% approval in the most recent poll I can find, compared to NZ's Jacinda Ardern at +33%).
                  New Zealand isn't a nation its a romantic notion!

                  One irony is that it is condemned as a haven of socialism and progressivism by the same ones who see NZ as the last great outpost for conservatives. There are some US conservatives who advocate jumping off the (supposedly) sinking ship which is the US and relocating to NZ.

                  Japan used the parliamentary model, not the US's, when it took its constitution after the war.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                    One irony is that it is condemned as a haven of socialism and progressivism by the same ones who see NZ as the last great outpost for conservatives. There are some US conservatives who advocate jumping off the (supposedly) sinking ship which is the US and relocating to NZ.
                    NZ has always been pretty consistently fairly socially liberal, certainly not any sort of outpost for social conservativism. We're much more a Scotland / Canada in terms of social values than we are a US / England / Northern Ireland.

                    But NZ's been all over the place on economics and government programs, from strong government regulation, to full free market, from the first country in the world to have government provided healthcare for all, to having a tax system that lets the rich pay almost nothing in taxes. Thatcherism / Reaganomics hit here too, and neoliberalism of that period still isn't quite dead here.
                    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

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                    • #25
                      Opposition party collapses: Jeremy Corbyn said he would not lead the Labour Party into another election as the party headed for its worst result in decades.

                      https://edition.cnn.com/uk/live-news...33ac8f219c8194
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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by EvoUK View Post
                        Picking nits, but technically it was more than just England who took part in this GE- but yes, England is unfortunately going to be mostly to blame for another 5 years of Tory rule, with a majority no less.
                        Yes, the party that have completely failed to achieve Brexit campaigned with the claim that they are the only party that can achieve what they've so far failed miserably to achieve and somehow managed to win anyway.

                        At least it only took six weeks.
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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Roy View Post
                          Yes, the party that have completely failed to achieve Brexit campaigned with the claim that they are the only party that can achieve what they've so far failed miserably to achieve and somehow managed to win anyway.

                          At least it only took six weeks.
                          I think they are seen as the only party which could maintain the trust of Ulster.

                          Not sure I completely understand all the nuances, but I have tried to follow the Brexit story all along. Then again, I am not sure if the Brits understand it!

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                            So, exit polls in England show a landslide victory for the Conservatives. Good job England!!
                            Bad news US Progressives.
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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                            • #29
                              Congratulations Boris!

                              I think this shows that even in the UK, the liberals have gone too far and alienated the people. I see this as a foreshadowing of the 2020 US Election.

                              How long before the liberals in the UK start trying to oust Boris and claim he is a Russian shill and a fascist, while destroying property and burning cars?

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                Congratulations Boris!

                                I think this shows that even in the UK, the liberals have gone too far and alienated the people. I see this as a foreshadowing of the 2020 US Election.

                                How long before the liberals in the UK start trying to oust Boris and claim he is a Russian shill and a fascist, while destroying property and burning cars?
                                The House of Commons can always call for impeachment! That's working so well for our Democrats!
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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