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False Idol — Why the Christian Right Worships Donald Trump

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  • #91
    Originally posted by demi-conservative View Post
    At best they can establish a quid pro quo on the national level, which is what diplomacy is. Nothing has established personal quid pro quo.
    I'll assume you've read up on this one. We'll have to agree to disagree. But for the record, a lot of national security officials apparently see no national reason for the quid pro quo, and a lot of people (myself included) CAN see a personal reason for Trump. It's really pretty simple. He wanted to harm a political rival by holding up aid to get Ukraine to agree to investigate said rival.

    On the other side of that argument, what did the US gain from withholding aid to ally against a military and economic rival like Russia?
    "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by demi-conservative View Post
      One last post. "Nothing has established personal quid pro quo" was about the Ukraine nonsense. Retard, you can't read.
      You are an uncouth fool and I'll not argue with you further. You're the reason conservatives come across slobbering idiots.
      "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by demi-conservative View Post
        Translation: you didn't actually review the articles that you cited, and expected me to take them seriously as evidence.

        What a joke, I'm not dealing with this any more.
        Wrong article, jackleg.
        "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

        Comment


        • #94
          Also, for everyone else reading this: please note that demi-conservative asked for facts, then couldn't read all the articles, made only half-hearted arguments before resorting to calling me a retard and deciding to quit arguing with me. He also implied I was a "sanctimonious ass" because he didn't like what I had to say before all that. Real stand-up, model Christian behavior there, bro.
          "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            Sure. All I do is work all day behind a desk, post on tweb and watch TV. I bet that describes you and most of tweb.

            I look forward to Charles' Trolling almost as much as I do First Floor's. I find it hilarious that he admonishes the conservatives for things he ignores from the liberal side. Like "whataboutism"

            Whatabout you?

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by myth View Post
              No, but Mountain Man doesn't get to pretend to have settled the argument when he didn't really make an argument at all. "I reject your facts" is a terrible argument. Just because my opinion isn't popular doesn't make me an ass. But be careful who you call an ass, lest you look like one yourself.

              seanD is making the best pseudo-pro-Trump arguments here, but I'm still not convinced that the failure to call out sin by evangelicals is justified. But at least he's making reasoned arguments, which I respect.
              What sin? Are you talking about something approximately contemporary, or old news?
              Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

              Beige Nationalist.

              "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

              Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                What sin? Are you talking about something approximately contemporary, or old news?
                Or, perhaps, both?
                "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by Charles View Post
                  Or, perhaps, both?
                  Plenty has been said about his past sins. I was as vehemently vitriolic as anyone during the primaries. When he became the candidate, I pondered and prayed, and ultimately clenched my teeth and sphincters and voted for him. I did not trust him to carry through on his promises, and wasn't sure what to expect in terms of his horndoggery. I've been pleased with his policies (there were a few I didn't like, but ATM I can't recall what they were).

                  So let's talk about what's relatively current. What "sins" should Christians be prophetically denouncing?
                  Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                  Beige Nationalist.

                  "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                  Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                    Plenty has been said about his past sins. I was as vehemently vitriolic as anyone during the primaries. When he became the candidate, I pondered and prayed, and ultimately clenched my teeth and sphincters and voted for him. I did not trust him to carry through on his promises, and wasn't sure what to expect in terms of his horndoggery. I've been pleased with his policies (there were a few I didn't like, but ATM I can't recall what they were).

                    So let's talk about what's relatively current. What "sins" should Christians be prophetically denouncing?
                    I haven't said anything about prophecy, as you well know, so quit being disingenuous. And I guess we should just ignore his past because he's now president? I see the fact that he IS president as a failure of evangelicals to be discerning and/or vocal during the primary process.

                    I'm saying Christians should call out his wrongdoing (whatever that is) even as we vote for him. I believe that actual or apparent unconditional support for Donald Trump is impairing the ability of evangelicals to witness to our non-believing countrymen. It's really that simple. I'm arguing for a more nuanced, better articulated evangelical political image than unconditional support for Trump. That's it.

                    We can argue all day long about Trump's individual actions, but for the die-hard Trump supporters like MM and demi-conservative (and maybe you? I dunno), they'll always have some excuse why he didn't do anything wrong, or why the can't call him out on it. They're seemingly incapable of recognizing his mistakes because they're so infatuated with him.

                    A quote from Albert Einstein comes to mind:

                    “Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are incapable of forming such opinions."

                    Depsite demi's use of quotations around "conservative" in reference to me, I am a conservative. I voted for the man, which is why I find it funny that demi seems to question my conservativ credentials just because I haven't drunk the Koolaid like he has. I'd be interested to some of the people arguing with me here quit with the bully puplit, koolaid-induced insults and denial of all Trump's wrongdoing and actually make an argument that I'm wrong about this.

                    If you don't acknowledge Trump's moral failings, then go through the more prominent accusations and present a well-crafted argument that they're all wrong. If you don't want to do that (or acknowledge his moral failings), then let's move past the obvious and talk about the thing I'm actually trying to talk about here. Does unabashed support for Donald Trump help you spread the Gospel? If yes, then how so? If the answer is no....then what in the world are all these Christians doing?
                    "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by myth View Post
                      ... Does unabashed support for Donald Trump help you spread the Gospel?...
                      What in the world do the two have to do with each other? Scripture is pretty clear on how we are to pray for our leaders. That's it. Our spreading the Gospel has nothing to do with who is President. It has to do with who is Savior, and that's it.
                      That's what
                      - She

                      Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                      - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                      I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                      Stephen R. Donaldson

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                        What in the world do the two have to do with each other? Scripture is pretty clear on how we are to pray for our leaders. That's it. Our spreading the Gospel has nothing to do with who is President. It has to do with who is Savior, and that's it.
                        Scripture is also pretty clear on your obligations towards other human beings. It is also pretty clear on personal responsibility towards other and Jesus identifies with those who are weak, ignored, mistreated, in prison, hungry and the like. It is a wonder how you think you can promote that message in one context and then go on not only to vote (which could be a compromise) but continue an almost unconditional support for a man who not only has a dehumanizing rhetoric but also treats the absolute weakest very badly, taking children away from their parents and the like. I know, because I have seen it before, that you will continue to ignore it, find excuses or go for simplifications like the one you presented above. It is easy to see through. Who your savior is has an influence on your view on human value, dignity and treatment of others. As is indicated by the title of this thread many evangelicals seem to serve another master.
                        "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by myth View Post
                          I haven't said anything about prophecy, as you well know, so quit being disingenuous.
                          I was using the term "prophetically" in the sense of "denouncing sin as the prophets did." That is a normal usage of the term.


                          And I guess we should just ignore his past because he's now president? I see the fact that he IS president as a failure of evangelicals to be discerning and/or vocal during the primary process.
                          I was surprised by the support he got in the primaries, and displeased that he won. I don't consider him a conservative, and I'm skeptical that he has any real ideological core. But in terms of outcome, I think he's done better than my first choice, Lyin' Ted.

                          And I had plenty of bad to say about him during the primaries, to the chagrin of some of my evangelical friends. But my criticism had nothing to do with concern about my "witness."

                          A serious question: Were you anywhere near as averse to Romney in 2012? I was not. But if the concern is "witness," why would it be any worse to support a profane narcissistic megalomaniacal horndog than a polite and upstanding infidel member of a pseudo-Christian cult?


                          I'm saying Christians should call out his wrongdoing (whatever that is) even as we vote for him. I believe that actual or apparent unconditional support for Donald Trump is impairing the ability of evangelicals to witness to our non-believing countrymen. It's really that simple. I'm arguing for a more nuanced, better articulated evangelical political image than unconditional support for Trump. That's it.
                          I'd like to see his big-name public supporters be a bit more restrained, especially the relatively more orthodox ones.

                          We can argue all day long about Trump's individual actions, but for the die-hard Trump supporters like MM and demi-conservative (and maybe you? I dunno), they'll always have some excuse why he didn't do anything wrong, or why the can't call him out on it. They're seemingly incapable of recognizing his mistakes because they're so infatuated with him.
                          I'm *mostly* supportive, more so than Cow Poke, I'd say. I despise a lot of his past, and the way he often behaved in the primaries. I don't like some of his tweeting, especially when it is mean-spirited. But I don't mind his tweeting and other comments as much as some do. I don't mind his profanity. (I think Gutfeld's "America's New York cab driver President" is apt.) I find some of his boasting annoying, some amusing. I thought the Rocky meme was a riot. I am *generally* going to defend him, and in light of Fake News like the Charlottesville thing, I'm going to default to not immediately believing bad reports about him.

                          But I really must commend his covfefe.

                          A quote from Albert Einstein comes to mind:

                          “Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are incapable of forming such opinions."

                          Depsite demi's use of quotations around "conservative" in reference to me, I am a conservative. I voted for the man, which is why I find it funny that demi seems to question my conservativ credentials just because I haven't drunk the Koolaid like he has. I'd be interested to some of the people arguing with me here quit with the bully puplit, koolaid-induced insults and denial of all Trump's wrongdoing and actually make an argument that I'm wrong about this.

                          If you don't acknowledge Trump's moral failings, then go through the more prominent accusations and present a well-crafted argument that they're all wrong. If you don't want to do that (or acknowledge his moral failings), then let's move past the obvious and talk about the thing I'm actually trying to talk about here. Does unabashed support for Donald Trump help you spread the Gospel? If yes, then how so? If the answer is no....then what in the world are all these Christians doing?
                          I don't get much IRL occasion to "spread the Gospel." The only time I had frequent IRL contact with unbelievers was college, 40 years ago, when I was a new believer. I live in a churchy small town in western PA. There is literally a church every few blocks, including one street that has two churches right across the street from each other. I would have to go searching to find someone who had not heard the Gospel.

                          Can you give me an example of interaction with one or more unbelievers where Trump would come up in the course of "sharing the Gospel"? (In real life, as opposed to online, preferably.) I'm serious.
                          Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                          Beige Nationalist.

                          "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                          Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by myth View Post
                            We can argue all day long about Trump's individual actions, but for the die-hard Trump supporters like MM...
                            I think you have that impression only because most of the time on this forum, I'm responding to diehard anti-Trump nutcases like oxmixmudd and JimL. As I've said before, Trump offers a rich field for substantive debate, but the majority of the time, we just get the fake news nonsense like "Trump is a modern day Hitler!" and "Trump hates foreigners!", and what can any rational person do but oppose it simply out of a respect for the truth? If that gets me branded as a "diehard Trump supporter" then so be it.
                            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                            Than a fool in the eyes of God


                            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                              I think you have that impression only because most of the time on this forum, I'm responding to diehard anti-Trump nutcases like oxmixmudd and JimL. As I've said before, Trump offers a rich field for substantive debate, but the majority of the time, we just get the fake news nonsense like "Trump is a modern day Hitler!" and "Trump hates foreigners!", and what can any rational person do but oppose it simply out of a respect for the truth? If that gets me branded as a "diehard Trump supporter" then so be it.
                              I take it as seriously as JimL's 'CP is a Trump supporter'. Trump is doing many things from appointing judges, to immigration policy and walls, to healthcare, foreign policy and trade wars, economic policy, but all they really want to discuss is 'orange man bad', because that's what the mainstream media is focusing on.
                              Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                                I think you have that impression only because most of the time on this forum, I'm responding to diehard anti-Trump nutcases like oxmixmudd and JimL. As I've said before, Trump offers a rich field for substantive debate, but the majority of the time, we just get the fake news nonsense like "Trump is a modern day Hitler!" and "Trump hates foreigners!", and what can any rational person do but oppose it simply out of a respect for the truth? If that gets me branded as a "diehard Trump supporter" then so be it.
                                You have supported trump in his most vile and degrading moments Mm. Your spin on your position doesn't fly.
                                He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

                                "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

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