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False Idol Why the Christian Right Worships Donald Trump

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    I didn't know you could hurl an elephant that far.

    Needless to say, I'm not obligated to accept the dozens of hidden assumptions in the above paragraph.
    All pretty well established fact, you're just unwilling to believe. Some of what I wrote about is literally on audio recordings that have been aired publicly. Some have vast amounts of documentation combined with admissions Trump's lawyers have made in court. I'll waste no further effort trying to convince the willfully ignorant.
    "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by seanD View Post
      I think most of what you're describing (at least what's legitimate) is pretty much how the wealthy elite, including those in government, typically operate. The reason the actions of Trump is exposed is because no political figure has ever been this much under the microscope. Therefore, since most government figures operate this way and this is how the system itself operates, Christians would have to disengage entirely from politics, especially politics on a national level.
      I think it's so exposed because Trump hasn't been a political figure until now, and he's too arrogant or stupid to bother trying to hide it.

      And I don't have to disengage from politics to call out wrongdoing when I see it. It's not as simple as an either/or support Trump in everything versus ignore politics.
      "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by myth View Post
        I think it's so exposed because Trump hasn't been a political figure until now, and he's too arrogant or stupid to bother trying to hide it.

        And I don't have to disengage from politics to call out wrongdoing when I see it. It's not as simple as an either/or support Trump in everything versus ignore politics.
        Things have become politically tribal, so it's difficult to criticize Trump when the left does this constantly, relentlessly, nonstop, for things that are both legit and things that are not legit. I personally don't have a problem doing it, but I can understand how it's a delicate matter for others. You don't want to give even an inch to the left when the political environment has become this tribal. I think the main concern for us as Christians is that the left has gone so far radically left -- with direct threats against both the first and second amendments, among other things -- that we don't have much of a choice in this case. It's critical we don't allow a Dem to get into office at this point, because then it's pretty much game over.
        "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

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        • #64
          Originally posted by myth View Post
          All pretty well established fact, you're just unwilling to believe. Some of what I wrote about is literally on audio recordings that have been aired publicly. Some have vast amounts of documentation combined with admissions Trump's lawyers have made in court. I'll waste no further effort trying to convince the willfully ignorant.
          I'm familiar with everything you're talking about, so your accusation that I'm "willfully ignorant" misses its mark. The point is, simply listing incidences that involve Donald Trump does not prove that everything you happen to believe about those incidences is necessarily true, which is why I said I'm not obligated to accept the hidden assumptions within your post.
          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
          Than a fool in the eyes of God


          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
            I'm familiar with everything you're talking about, so your accusation that I'm "willfully ignorant" misses its mark. The point is, simply listing incidences that involve Donald Trump does not prove that everything you happen to believe about those incidences is necessarily true, which is why I said I'm not obligated to accept the hidden assumptions within your post.
            I'm aware you're not obligated to accept anything, I'm not sure why you keep saying that. Probably because you aren't even refuting the accusations, so you've got to come up with something to say. I really didn't expect much else; you might be the most pro-Trump Twebber there is. You keep doing you, though. But it's not really a good look.
            "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by myth View Post
              But it's not really a good look.
              Are you going to become another sanctimonious ass? We already have enough posters crying 'it's not a good look'.
              Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by seanD View Post
                Things have become politically tribal, so it's difficult to criticize Trump when the left does this constantly, relentlessly, nonstop, for things that are both legit and things that are not legit. I personally don't have a problem doing it, but I can understand how it's a delicate matter for others. You don't want to give even an inch to the left when the political environment has become this tribal. I think the main concern for us as Christians is that the left has gone so far radically left -- with direct threats against both the first and second amendments, among other things -- that we don't have much of a choice in this case. It's critical we don't allow a Dem to get into office at this point, because then it's pretty much game over.
                Yeah I get it. That's what I voted for Trump and probably (sigh) will again. I'm just highly concerned that Christians who vociferously support Trump without qualifying their support, are making it appear that our value system condones the type of things he's doing. That damages our ability to evangelize greatly, and I've personally seen this with nonbelievers I've talked to. Quite frankly, they're aghast at how much support Christians are giving him. And you know what? They should be. Our moral and ethical principles should be more nuanced than non-believers, not the other way around.
                "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by demi-conservative View Post
                  Are you going to become another sanctimonious ass? We already have enough posters crying 'it's not a good look'.
                  No, but Mountain Man doesn't get to pretend to have settled the argument when he didn't really make an argument at all. "I reject your facts" is a terrible argument. Just because my opinion isn't popular doesn't make me an ass. But be careful who you call an ass, lest you look like one yourself.

                  seanD is making the best pseudo-pro-Trump arguments here, but I'm still not convinced that the failure to call out sin by evangelicals is justified. But at least he's making reasoned arguments, which I respect.
                  Last edited by myth; 12-07-2019, 07:36 PM.
                  "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by myth View Post
                    No, but Mountain Man doesn't get to pretend to have settled the argument when he didn't really make an argument at all. "I reject your facts" is a terrible argument. Just because my opinion isn't popular doesn't make me an ass. But be careful who you call an ass, lest you look like one yourself.
                    Why should he refute when you've provided no evidence?

                    Some of the accusations that 'Orange Man Bad' are hard to establish. 'He refused to pay some contractors, boohoo', we all know stories of terrible contractors and Trump's side of the story is that he refused to pay them because they did bad work and therefore broke the contract. It would be natural for many such stories to exist, since Trump built a lot of buildings and must have hired thousands of contractors. How are we to judge the truth without looking at the contract, and whatever service the contractors provided? It's impossible, and taking these seriously demonstrates your gullibility.
                    Last edited by demi-conservative; 12-07-2019, 07:38 PM.
                    Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by demi-conservative View Post
                      Why should he refute when you've provided no evidence?

                      Some of the accusations that 'Orange Man Bad' are hard to establish. 'He refused to pay some contractors, boohoo', we all know stories of terrible contractors and Trump's side of the story is that he refused to pay them because they did bad work and therefore broke the contract. How are we to judge the truth without looking at the contract, and whatever service the contractors provided? It's impossible, and taking these seriously demonstrates your gullibility.
                      He hasn't even really denied them, he's avoided talking about them. If he asked for proof, I'd bother to spend my time gathering it. Honestly though, I doubt he's interested in that proof, so why waste my time.
                      "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by myth View Post
                        ...you aren't even refuting the accusations...
                        Because unpacking all of the assumptions behind each item in your laundry list would take more time and effort than I care to expend.
                        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                        Than a fool in the eyes of God


                        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by demi-conservative View Post
                          Why should he refute when you've provided no evidence?

                          Some of the accusations that 'Orange Man Bad' are hard to establish. 'He refused to pay some contractors, boohoo', we all know stories of terrible contractors and Trump's side of the story is that he refused to pay them because they did bad work and therefore broke the contract. It would be natural for many such stories to exist, since Trump built a lot of buildings and must have hired thousands of contractors. How are we to judge the truth without looking at the contract, and whatever service the contractors provided? It's impossible, and taking these seriously demonstrates your gullibility.
                          If you have Netflix, check out the "Confidence Man" episode on Dirty Money. Also. I'm inclined to believe certain things about Trump because of the repeated accusations by tons and tons of people. in aggregate, there's more credibility. To take your argument further, I shouldn't ever believe than anyone has done anything wrong unless I've had the opportunity to launch a full-scale investigation personally.
                          "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by myth View Post
                            He hasn't even really denied them, he's avoided talking about them. If he asked for proof, I'd bother to spend my time gathering it. Honestly though, I doubt he's interested in that proof, so why waste my time.
                            If you have no proof, why do you think you've established anything? You've not made an actual argument, so yes, in your words MM gets to "pretend to have settled the argument when he didn't really make an argument at all", and "I reject your facts" because you've established nothing with zero proof, as you admit.
                            Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by myth View Post
                              No, but Mountain Man doesn't get to pretend to have settled the argument when he didn't really make an argument at all. "I reject your facts" is a terrible argument.
                              Which is why what I'm really rejecting are your hidden assumptions.
                              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                              Than a fool in the eyes of God


                              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by demi-conservative View Post
                                If you have no proof, why do you think you've established anything? You've not made an actual argument, so yes, in your words MM gets to "pretend to have settled the argument when he didn't really make an argument at all", and "I reject your facts" because you've established nothing with zero proof, as you admit.
                                Don't be obtuse. I said I hadn't provided proof; not that I didn't have any. Gimme a few minutes and I'll go gathering information for you, you sanctimonious jerk.
                                "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

                                Comment

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