Announcement

Collapse

Civics 101 Guidelines

Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!

Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less

False Idol — Why the Christian Right Worships Donald Trump

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    And Charles did you really expect conservatives Christians to support Clinton over Trump, or now to support the radical left over him?
    I've asked which candidate for president Christians could have safely voted for in 2016, but nobody has ever given me an answer. No matter who we vote for, liberals can always throw that candidate's moral failings in our faces. I think, in the end, liberals would love for us to simply remove ourselves from the political process.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      You'd likely find the same numbers for other previous presidents because it's a very short step from "it's God's will" to "God wanted this" for many people.
      Po-tay-toes, po-tah-toes, as far as I'm concerned.
      Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

      Beige Federalist.

      Nationalist Christian.

      "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

      Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

      Proud member of the this space left blank community.

      Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

      Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

      Justice for Matthew Perna!

      Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

      Comment


      • #48
        IMO, the issue is roughly this:

        1) Christians should want a POTUS who protects Christian values and liberties, but does not impose them -- whether those values be opposition to gay marriage (for the conservative Christians) or social justice (for the liberal Christians).

        2) The job of POTUS is to do what is best for the country, not to be a moral or religious exemplar.

        3) If it really is the case that it is "immoral" or "sinful" for a Christian to vote for an "unchristlike" person, or for a Christian politician to favor policies that are good for our country, even if they may have the secondary effect of harming Christians in other countries, then the best thing Christians can do is separate from "the world," and not participate in politics in any way.
        Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

        Beige Federalist.

        Nationalist Christian.

        "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

        Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

        Proud member of the this space left blank community.

        Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

        Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

        Justice for Matthew Perna!

        Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
          I've asked which candidate for president Christians could have safely voted for in 2016, but nobody has ever given me an answer. No matter who we vote for, liberals can always throw that candidate's moral failings in our faces. I think, in the end, liberals would love for us to simply remove ourselves from the political process.
          The thread is not about who you voted for, and you would have known if you had read the op and the article pointed to carefully. I understand you like to make it a discussion about that since then you can avoid some of the difficult parts of it where Trump is described in religious terms and where the majority of the Christian right continue to support him though he is obviously lying and being inhuman towards others. But whataboutism and the they-do-not-want-us-to-vote strawman is seen so many times before. It does not adress the point though.
          "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by seer View Post
            Well as far as POLICY it is kind of good verses evil.
            So, the family separations were good? Causing such extreme pain and suffering to children who had no choice was good? The continued lies are good?
            "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

            Comment


            • #51
              It is a rather long article. This is another very interesting and quite telling part of it:

              In 1976, the year that evangelical Sunday school teacher Jimmy Carter was elected president, fundamentalist pastor Jerry Falwell decided it was time to stoop to worldly matters and go on a series of “I Love America” rallies across the country to decry the decline of American morality.

              What constituted that decline, in Falwell’s mind, was the 1971 case Green v. Connally, which had determined that “racially discriminatory private schools are not entitled to the federal tax exemption.” Falwell had founded just such an institution, Lynchburg Christian School, and believing in his God-given American right to exclude African Americans, he teamed up with Paul Weyrich, a religious political activist and co-founder of the conservative think tank the Heritage Foundation, who had long been searching for an issue around which to forge a Christian voting bloc. Together, they reframed the debate, creating a playbook for a defense of white supremacy. “Weyrich’s genius lay in recognizing that he was unlikely to organize a mass movement around the defense of racial segregation,” argues Randall Balmer, an Episcopal priest and historian of American religion at Dartmouth College. “That would be a tough sell. With a sleight of hand, he recast the issue as a defense of religious liberty.” https://www.rollingstone.com/politic...-trump-915381/
              "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

              Comment


              • #52
                I read the entire article. It was moderately interesting. I did not find any of it especially "telling," nor does it in any way dissuade me from continuing to support Trump. (Yes, I know some here like to remind the crowd that they are not "supporters" of Trump, and then, IMO, proceed to split hairs. I do not hesitate to own being a Trump supporter, even though there are objectionable things about him.) OTOH, if anything was "telling," it was that a big root feeding the author's unfortunate change was his spending time abroad. He clearly returned infected with progressive cooties, as evidenced by his use of the term, "anti-choice." He became a globalist, while it is the job of any POTUS to be a nationalist.

                I think it is asinine to whine about "whataboutism," when the article itself invited such comparisons by mentioning about half a dozen previous Presidents, and alludes to the alleged "hypocrisy" of Trump voters. Knock it off, nanny.

                I'm not a big Jeffress fan, but I'm also not troubled by his apocalyptic, culture war language. He's an evangelical preacher, and he talks like one. Do you get as troubled when famously devout Catholic Nancy Pelosi avers that “Civilization as we know it today is at stake in the next election, and certainly, our planet"? (From here.)

                "Today, 82 percent of white evangelicals would cast their ballots for Trump."

                I'm delighted to hear that! I spend time on some other sites where the (self-)righteous remnant 18%ers clearly despise us Deplorables.

                And I am NOT one of those who would be thrilled with Pence. I'd wanted Cruz, but I don't think he would have done as good a job as Trump, and I don't think Pence or almost any other "normal" Republican would.

                "Two-thirds believe that he has not damaged the decency of the presidency,"

                He may have done that. But he has not abused it overall as much as Barry Soweto.

                "55 percent agree with Sarah Huckabee Sanders that 'God wanted him to be president,' and 99 percent oppose impeachment."

                I'm delighted to be part of both of those majorities.
                Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                Beige Federalist.

                Nationalist Christian.

                "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                Justice for Matthew Perna!

                Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Charles View Post
                  Very interesting article: False Idol — Why the Christian Right Worships Donald Trump

                  It is rather long, so I would suggest you read all of it. It as based on the experience of someone who, like myself, grew up in a Chrstian family and is now seeing some of the basic values of the church contradicted by the church itself.



                  And as history will certainly tell and has already told nothing could be further from the truth than what Jeffress said:



                  And a shocking number of facts are given:





                  And it reminds me of how many twebbers treat good old Ox when I read this:



                  And it feels like the tweb-home when you read this:
                  The article expresses a concern I've had for some time. I agree with the Christian right's strategic decision to support Trump (judge appointments and all that). It's about making the best decision you can with the choices on offer.

                  That being said, so many evangelicals have gone all in. They won't criticize anything he's done or said, which implies support for those actions. We're eroding our own moral authority in the eyes of the our secular countrymen -- the very people we are commanded to witness to. How, exactly, can we 'evangelize' if the target audience think's we're a bunch of morally bankrupt crackpots, just like Trump? For those who say we're "splitting hairs"...well, the hairs need to be split. I think it's important to let it be known I don't condone presidential crotch-grabbing, or a president who solicits bribes, or otherwise behaves like an angry 5th grader in office. I'll still vote for him, and encourage others to do the same.....but in no way do I want his moral depravity to reflect badly on myself or my faith.

                  You other Christians would be well advised to be more articulate in the way you present your political stances.
                  "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Chuckles View Post
                    The thread is not about who you voted for, and you would have known if you had read the op and the article pointed to carefully. I understand you like to make it a discussion about that since then you can avoid some of the difficult parts of it where Trump is described in religious terms and where the majority of the Christian right continue to support him though he is obviously lying and being inhuman towards others. But whataboutism and the they-do-not-want-us-to-vote strawman is seen so many times before. It does not adress the point though.
                    Where has Trump ever been described in religious terms beyond recognizing God's sovereignty in all human affairs?

                    As for your claims that he's a liar and inhumane, I don't see any moral failings in him that are greater or more egregious than what I see in the average person and certainly nothing that would compel me to denounce him.
                    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                    Than a fool in the eyes of God


                    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Charles View Post
                      So, the family separations were good? Causing such extreme pain and suffering to children who had no choice was good? The continued lies are good?
                      I had no problem with temporary separation especially since we really had no idea if the claimed parents were actually the parents. And lies are never good even when the Dems lie.
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                        Where has Trump ever been described in religious terms beyond recognizing God's sovereignty in all human affairs?

                        As for your claims that he's a liar and inhumane, I don't see any moral failings in him that are greater or more egregious than what I see in the average person and certainly nothing that would compel me to denounce him.
                        Really? How about the narcissistic fabrication that he was a billionaire when he wasn't, including agreements with NYC tabloid reporters that he'd feed them information as long as they always referred to him as a billionaire in their reporting.? How about sexual assault and infidelity? How about soliciting Ukrainian involvement in US political affairs for personal gain (aka bribery)? How about using a personal attorney as a shield against criminal liability while doing these things, just like mobsters do? How about a consistent history of failing to pay people what he owed them in business dealings? How about running a fraud scheme to convince hardworking people to spend exorbitant sums of money that they don't have for 'classes' that weren't actually helpful (Trump University and the high-pressure sales tactics encourage people to increase their credit card limits to spend like $30k on bogus classes)? How about using his leverage as a presidential candidate to seek business opportunities in Moscow? Nothing like good old fashioned corruption, after all. He's only trading the integrity of the American election system for personal gain.

                        Seems to me you're willing to put up with pretty much anything short of murder.
                        "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by myth View Post
                          Really? How about the narcissistic fabrication that he was a billionaire when he wasn't, including agreements with NYC tabloid reporters that he'd feed them information as long as they always referred to him as a billionaire in their reporting.? How about sexual assault and infidelity? How about soliciting Ukrainian involvement in US political affairs for personal gain (aka bribery)? How about using a personal attorney as a shield against criminal liability while doing these things, just like mobsters do? How about a consistent history of failing to pay people what he owed them in business dealings? How about running a fraud scheme to convince hardworking people to spend exorbitant sums of money that they don't have for 'classes' that weren't actually helpful (Trump University and the high-pressure sales tactics encourage people to increase their credit card limits to spend like $30k on bogus classes)? How about using his leverage as a presidential candidate to seek business opportunities in Moscow? Nothing like good old fashioned corruption, after all. He's only trading the integrity of the American election system for personal gain.

                          Seems to me you're willing to put up with pretty much anything short of murder.
                          I didn't know you could hurl an elephant that far.

                          Needless to say, I'm not obligated to accept the dozens of hidden assumptions in the above paragraph.
                          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                          Than a fool in the eyes of God


                          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            Originally posted by whag View Post
                            Yes, really. Being alive in 1997, I specifically remember Clinton faithful saying they voted for a great president, not a saint. Republicans were outraged by the lack of outrage.
                            Awesome! I eagerly await Charles chiding you on "whataboutism"
                            Ummm. CHUCKYPOO... Yoohoo!

                            You forgot to call whag out on his whataboutism. I am sure it just slipped your mind and all. I just wanted remind you. Because otherwise you would be a hypocrite.

                            Signed,
                            Waiting with bated breath
                            Sparko

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by myth View Post
                              Really? How about the narcissistic fabrication that he was a billionaire when he wasn't, including agreements with NYC tabloid reporters that he'd feed them information as long as they always referred to him as a billionaire in their reporting.? How about sexual assault and infidelity? How about soliciting Ukrainian involvement in US political affairs for personal gain (aka bribery)? How about using a personal attorney as a shield against criminal liability while doing these things, just like mobsters do? How about a consistent history of failing to pay people what he owed them in business dealings? How about running a fraud scheme to convince hardworking people to spend exorbitant sums of money that they don't have for 'classes' that weren't actually helpful (Trump University and the high-pressure sales tactics encourage people to increase their credit card limits to spend like $30k on bogus classes)? How about using his leverage as a presidential candidate to seek business opportunities in Moscow? Nothing like good old fashioned corruption, after all. He's only trading the integrity of the American election system for personal gain.

                              Seems to me you're willing to put up with pretty much anything short of murder.
                              I think most of what you're describing (at least what's legitimate) is pretty much how the wealthy elite, including those in government, typically operate. The reason the actions of Trump is exposed is because no political figure has ever been this much under the microscope. Therefore, since most government figures operate this way and this is how the system itself operates, Christians would have to disengage entirely from politics, especially politics on a national level.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by seanD View Post
                                I think most of what you're describing (at least what's legitimate) is pretty much how the wealthy elite, including those in government, typically operate. The reason the actions of Trump is exposed is because no political figure has ever been this much under the microscope. Therefore, since most government figures operate this way and this is how the system itself operates, Christians would have to disengage entirely from politics, especially politics on a national level.
                                I really think that's the endgame for liberals, to try and guilt us into taking a "neutral" position in politics.
                                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by little_monkey, Yesterday, 04:19 PM
                                6 responses
                                47 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post whag
                                by whag
                                 
                                Started by whag, 03-26-2024, 04:38 PM
                                42 responses
                                231 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post whag
                                by whag
                                 
                                Started by rogue06, 03-26-2024, 11:45 AM
                                24 responses
                                104 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Ronson
                                by Ronson
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 09:21 AM
                                32 responses
                                176 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 08:34 AM
                                73 responses
                                307 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Working...
                                X