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Schiff Targets Political Rival, Journalist

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  • #46
    Originally posted by seanD View Post
    He had to lie about it.
    sean, even if as you assume, what effect did Schiff talking to the whistlblower have on anything?

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
      Prove it. No excuses. Where's the evidence? Prove it.
      Prove what, what on earth are you concerned about if the whistleblower talked to Schiff?

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
        That Schiff and/or his staff assisted Ciaramella is no longer the issue. That has been confirmed to the point that the WaPo gave Schiff four Pinocchios for insisting it didn't. And that contact is one of the reasons that Ciaramella does not qualify as a whistleblower. The question is just how much help did they provide including helping him write the complaint. Several experts have cited the lawyerly language used in noting what sort of information can and cannot be released as strong evidence that he was helped in drafting the initial complaint -- something that Ciaramella is extremely unlikely to know.

        As for this oft cited myth that its "substance has since been mostly substantiated by fact witnesses" is akin to saying that Beowulf is true history because it happens to provide the names of some real people and places.

        Trump, as Ciaramella claimed, was not obsessed with talking about Biden constantly bringing him up seven or eight times. In reality, Trump brought Biden up once and that was near the end of the conversation and almost as an afterthought.

        Further, the transcript clearly shows that his claim that Trump demanded that Zelensky "dig up some dirt" on Biden if he ever wanted to get any aid is not even remotely based on reality. It simply never happened.

        And Ciaramella's claim that Trump told Zelensky that the latter wouldn't get any aide unless he "[dug] up some dirt" on Biden is likewise nothing short of a falsehood. It is not even remotely based on reality being that it simply never happened.The fact that the Ukrainians never even opened up an investigation much less dug up dirt and still got their aid verifies the claim is false.

        Likewise his claim that at the end of the call Trump told Zelensky not to call back until he did what Trump demanded of also never happened. Not even remotely close. In reality, Trump congratulated him on his victory.

        Those are just a few of the myriad of major inaccuracies that plague the supposed whistleblower's story[1] -- which would be more than sufficient to get him branded as being an unreliable witness that no lawyer would want to go near in any court of law. Well at least lawyers who would use him as a witness since those cross-examining him would regard him as a God send and would be chomping at the bit in anticipation of tearing him to shreds.












        1. I hesitate at calling them deliberate lies only because that implies that Ciaramella had actual knowledge of the call which he did not have. All he had was second and third hand gossip.


        [ATTACH=CONFIG]41235[/ATTACH]
        This and whining from disgruntled employees about not being
        listened to constituted over 95% of the "testimony"
        Schiff didn't have access to the data in the complaint and the complaint was substantiated. Take the tin foil hat off, rogue.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
          That Schiff and/or his staff assisted Ciaramella is no longer the issue. That has been confirmed to the point that the WaPo gave Schiff four Pinocchios for insisting it didn't. And that contact is one of the reasons that Ciaramella does not qualify as a whistleblower. The question is just how much help did they provide including helping him write the complaint. Several experts have cited the lawyerly language used in noting what sort of information can and cannot be released as strong evidence that he was helped in drafting the initial complaint -- something that Ciaramella is extremely unlikely to know.
          1) The claim is that Schiff personally met with the whistleblower and/or that Schiff's staff assisted in writing the complaint. The WaPo fact-check only deals with the agreed-upon fact that the whistleblower at some point approached HPCSI staff.

          2) We don't know the identity of the whistleblower, nor do we know his or her relevant experience when it comes to writing style. Nevertheless, the complaint doesn't read "lawyer-y" at all.

          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
          As for this oft cited myth that its "substance has since been mostly substantiated by fact witnesses" is akin to saying that Beowulf is true history because it happens to provide the names of some real people and places.

          Trump, as Ciaramella claimed, was not obsessed with talking about Biden constantly bringing him up seven or eight times. In reality, Trump brought Biden up once and that was near the end of the conversation and almost as an afterthought.
          3) The whistleblower complaint doesn't allege that Trump brought up Biden "seven or eight times".

          Source: https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2019/09/politics/whistleblower-complaint-annotated

          Multiple White House officials with direct knowledge of the call informed me that, after an initial exchange of pleasantries, the President used the remainder of the call to advance his personal interests. Namely, he sought to pressure the Ukrainian leader to take actions to help the Presidentís 2020 reelection bid. According to the White House officials who had direct knowledge of the call, the President pressured Mr. Zelenskyy to, inter alia:

          • initiate or continue an investigation2 into the activities of former Vice President Joseph Biden and his son, Hunter Biden;
          • assist in purportedly uncovering that allegations of Russian interference in the 2016 U.S. presidential election originated in Ukraine , with a specific request that the Ukrainian leader locate and turn over servers used by the Democratic National Committee (DNC) and examined by the U.S. cyber security firm Crowdstrike,3 which initially reported that Russian hackers had penetrated the DNCís networks in 2016; and
          • meet or speak with two people the President named explicitly as his personal envoys on these matters, Mr. Giuliani and Attorney General Barr, to whom the President referred multiple times in tandem.

          © Copyright Original Source


          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
          Further, the transcript clearly shows that his claim that Trump demanded that Zelensky "dig up some dirt" on Biden if he ever wanted to get any aid is not even remotely based on reality. It simply never happened.

          And Ciaramella's claim that Trump told Zelensky that the latter wouldn't get any aide unless he "[dug] up some dirt" on Biden is likewise nothing short of a falsehood. It is not even remotely based on reality being that it simply never happened.The fact that the Ukrainians never even opened up an investigation much less dug up dirt and still got their aid verifies the claim is false.

          Likewise his claim that at the end of the call Trump told Zelensky not to call back until he did what Trump demanded of also never happened. Not even remotely close. In reality, Trump congratulated him on his victory.
          4) The whistleblower complaint does not allege that Trump demanded Zelensky "dig up some dirt" on Biden if he ever wanted to get aid. You can look -- it ain't there. Neither does the complaint allege that Trump told Zelenskey not to call back unless he did what Trump demanded.

          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
          Those are just a few of the myriad of major inaccuracies that plague the supposed whistleblower's story[1] -- which would be more than sufficient to get him branded as being an unreliable witness that no lawyer would want to go near in any court of law. Well at least lawyers who would use him as a witness since those cross-examining him would regard him as a God send and would be chomping at the bit in anticipation of tearing him to shreds.
          I guess it's easy to debunk a written complaint about Trump's actions if you make up the complaint's content out of whole cloth. Seems like a pyrrhic victory, though.

          --Sam
          "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" ó Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
            Let Jim answer for himself or get out of my thread.
            I humbly submit that answering a post directed to another person is not only common practice here but the very nature of a public forum. If the Arena is still functional, I believe that's the 1-on-1 forum.

            --Sam
            "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" ó Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by JimLamebrain View Post
              Schiff didn't have access to the data in the complaint...
              Then why did he know the details before the complaint had been filed?

              https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/n...e-it-was-filed
              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
              Than a fool in the eyes of God


              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Sam View Post
                I humbly submit that answering a post directed to another person is not only common practice here but the very nature of a public forum. If the Arena is still functional, I believe that's the 1-on-1 forum.

                --Sam
                Hey Sam - great to see you. (Sorry your post wasn't addressed to me )
                "Neighbor, how long has it been since youíve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?Ē

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by JimL View Post
                  sean, even if as you assume, what effect did Schiff talking to the whistlblower have on anything?
                  If, as it appears, Schiff and/or his staff coached Ciaramella this should be a question even you shouldn't have to ask.

                  Oh, and it looks like Schiff lied about all of this. A lot. The Wall Street Journal actually did a wee bit of investigation rather than mindlessly repeating Schiff's claims like the rest of the MSM and and found some incredibly serious "errors."

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Sam View Post
                    1) The claim is that Schiff personally met with the whistleblower and/or that Schiff's staff assisted in writing the complaint. The WaPo fact-check only deals with the agreed-upon fact that the whistleblower at some point approached HPCSI staff.

                    2) We don't know the identity of the whistleblower, nor do we know his or her relevant experience when it comes to writing style. Nevertheless, the complaint doesn't read "lawyer-y" at all.



                    3) The whistleblower complaint doesn't allege that Trump brought up Biden "seven or eight times".

                    Source: https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2019/09/politics/whistleblower-complaint-annotated

                    Multiple White House officials with direct knowledge of the call informed me that, after an initial exchange of pleasantries, the President used the remainder of the call to advance his personal interests. Namely, he sought to pressure the Ukrainian leader to take actions to help the Presidentís 2020 reelection bid. According to the White House officials who had direct knowledge of the call, the President pressured Mr. Zelenskyy to, inter alia:

                    • initiate or continue an investigation2 into the activities of former Vice President Joseph Biden and his son, Hunter Biden;
                    • assist in purportedly uncovering that allegations of Russian interference in the 2016 U.S. presidential election originated in Ukraine , with a specific request that the Ukrainian leader locate and turn over servers used by the Democratic National Committee (DNC) and examined by the U.S. cyber security firm Crowdstrike,3 which initially reported that Russian hackers had penetrated the DNCís networks in 2016; and
                    • meet or speak with two people the President named explicitly as his personal envoys on these matters, Mr. Giuliani and Attorney General Barr, to whom the President referred multiple times in tandem.

                    © Copyright Original Source




                    4) The whistleblower complaint does not allege that Trump demanded Zelensky "dig up some dirt" on Biden if he ever wanted to get aid. You can look -- it ain't there. Neither does the complaint allege that Trump told Zelenskey not to call back unless he did what Trump demanded.



                    I guess it's easy to debunk a written complaint about Trump's actions if you make up the complaint's content out of whole cloth. Seems like a pyrrhic victory, though.

                    --Sam
                    It wasn't just what he said in the complaint but what he told the investigators and later testified to

                    Oh, and we do know his name. Eric Ciaramella.
                    Last edited by rogue06; 12-06-2019, 02:37 PM.

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by JimL View Post
                      Schiff didn't have access to the data in the complaint and the complaint was substantiated. Take the tin foil hat off, rogue.
                      If he didn't then how exactly did he manage to quote from it before it was filed?

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        If he didn't then how exactly did he manage to quote from it before it was filed?
                        He's just that good!
                        "Neighbor, how long has it been since youíve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?Ē

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by JimL View Post
                          Prove what, what on earth are you concerned about if the whistleblower talked to Schiff?
                          Quit dodging. You said you had evidence that proved your claim. Now, pony up. Prove it.

                          Or were you lying? Made a mistake?

                          Prove it or admit that you were wrong.

                          Prove it.

                          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot


                          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                          My Personal Blog

                          My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Sam View Post
                            I humbly submit that answering a post directed to another person is not only common practice here but the very nature of a public forum. If the Arena is still functional, I believe that's the 1-on-1 forum.

                            --Sam
                            Don't care. This is between Jim and I. You can argue with the others but butt out of our fight.

                            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot


                            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                            My Personal Blog

                            My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              Hey Sam - great to see you. (Sorry your post wasn't addressed to me )
                              giphy.gif
                              "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" ó Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                                It wasn't just what he said in the complaint but what he told the investigators and later testified to

                                Oh, and we do know his name. Eric Ciaramella.
                                "told the investigators and later testified to"

                                To my knowledge, the content of the whistleblower's discussion with the ICIG has never been released so you would need to provide a source. The whistleblower has never testified to any public body (even in the SCIF) so, again, you'd need to provide a source.

                                Right now, I recognize some of your allegations from very preliminary reporting done about the complaint's content before the complaint was made public. The rest I don't recognize from any legitimate reporting source over the past few months.

                                If you're talking about how unreliable and riddled with holes the whistleblower's "story" is, be sure you've got hard facts to back up how you're recounting that story.

                                --Sam
                                "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" ó Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                                Comment

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